Ireland versus Archduke Franz Ferdinand (2 Viewers)

[oh shit]

Cool, I'll do it.

Okay then what is football culture then enlighten me if i'm such a simpleton ?

You're obviously not a simpleton, so I think you can do the thinking for yourself. But for starters, part of 'football culture' on these islands involves hostility to other peoples' ideas, which is exactly what you displayed when you dismissed the point about the whole economic and social context of football. SO THERE

 

[Unicron]

Secondly I don't believe that any of that classist demographic nonsense has any effect on the way we play football.

Everything I said about class and demographics was with regard to England and how they're not really a footballing nation of 55 million. I never said it was the reason they play football the way they do, in fact I said there are technique and coaching issues. If they got that shit right then maybe they could be like the Dutch, an occasional last 4 side instead of being a regular last 8 team. Because that's what the size of their footballing population implies they might be capable of.

And you can talk about the Uruguay model if you want but the fact is that they've been pretty shit for 15 of the last 20 years, they've got lucky with a decent crop coming along at the right time but it could be argued that they've already peaked and are beginning to regress to the mean now. There's no particular reason to think that because Belgium has an outstanding group of players now they'll have it in 10 years. Middling sized countries sometimes have unusually good teams for their normal standard, the Danish in the mid 80's, us in the late 80's and early 90's, Croatia in the middle and late 90's, Turkey in the early 2000's. Sometimes countries just get lucky and a decent crop comes along at the right time. Yes improved coaching can help young players be the best players they can be, but there's still a great deal of happenstance involved.

The problem in Ireland with GAA, hurling and rugby from a football perspective is that there's people playing them when they could be playing football. Jonny Sexton or Bernard Brogan probably have the raw tools to be pretty good footballers, but they're doing other shit. There's a book out now/coming out soon called The Sports Gene which looks at the reason why particular places produce athletes that are good at particular sports. There's a certain tribe in Kenya that all the good distance runners come from, they make up about 20% of Kenya's population. The world thinks that Kenya is great at distance running, the Kenyans think this one tribe is good at it. And there are common physiological traits to many people in that group that might indicate why they are good at it, long skinny limbs make a person's body easy to cool, they have svelte ankles which are well suited to distance running as it takes less energy to swing your leg. Now you have to be careful with this sort of data because in the wrong hands it can be used to justify racism or be used as an argument for nasty things like eugenics, but there is some sense to the idea that particular body types suit particular sports. It's why I could never run but I won judo medals when I was younger.

But the thing is that physiology isn't the only reason, there's also sociological factors. What's the other reason that Kenya produces great distance runners? Because distance running is what they do. In the 50's the Finns were the dominant power in distance running, and their physiology is much different. But there was an idea that distance running was was the Finns did, so that's what the folks with the raw materials to be elite caliber athletes gravitated towards. We're a nation of 4 or so million people, and we don't have a sport that "we" do. To put it another way, why is Usain Bolt the greatest sprinter in the history of the world? In part the reason is because he's Jamaican and grew up there, if he'd been born in the USA he might be a star wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys, if he'd been born in the UK he might be the new Kyle Walker.

I don't entirely disagree with you on astro football but my point was that the large degree of participation in it inaccurately skews the numbers of people playing football somewhat.

 

[washingcattle]

You're obviously not a simpleton, so I think you can do the thinking for yourself. But for starters, part of 'football culture' on these islands involves hostility to other peoples' ideas, which is exactly what you displayed when you dismissed the point about the whole economic and social context of football. SO THERE

Ha, Hostility is the life blood of sport.

But I don't dismiss the socioeconomic context of football, I said it doesn't explain why our players can't pass a ball properly.

Look at it this way. Lets say that football training is a form of education. Socioeconomic factors the world over since the birth of civilisation dictate that the wealthier you are the more likely you are to receive an education. So why then are Bosnia and Uruguay producing better technical players than Ireland or England ?

I'm saying that the syllabus is wrong.

Everything I said about class and demographics was with regard to England and how they're not really a footballing nation of 55 million. I never said it was the reason they play football the way they do, in fact I said there are technique and coaching issues. If they got that shit right then maybe they could be like the Dutch, an occasional last 4 side instead of being a regular last 8 team. Because that's what the size of their footballing population implies they might be capable of.

And you can talk about the Uruguay model if you want but the fact is that they've been pretty shit for 15 of the last 20 years, they've got lucky with a decent crop coming along at the right time but it could be argued that they've already peaked and are beginning to regress to the mean now. There's no particular reason to think that because Belgium has an outstanding group of players now they'll have it in 10 years. Middling sized countries sometimes have unusually good teams for their normal standard, the Danish in the mid 80's, us in the late 80's and early 90's, Croatia in the middle and late 90's, Turkey in the early 2000's. Sometimes countries just get lucky and a decent crop comes along at the right time. Yes improved coaching can help young players be the best players they can be, but there's still a great deal of happenstance involved.

The problem in Ireland with GAA, hurling and rugby from a football perspective is that there's people playing them when they could be playing football. Jonny Sexton or Bernard Brogan probably have the raw tools to be pretty good footballers, but they're doing other shit. There's a book out now/coming out soon called The Sports Gene which looks at the reason why particular places produce athletes that are good at particular sports. There's a certain tribe in Kenya that all the good distance runners come from, they make up about 20% of Kenya's population. The world thinks that Kenya is great at distance running, the Kenyans think this one tribe is good at it. And there are common physiological traits to many people in that group that might indicate why they are good at it, long skinny limbs make a person's body easy to cool, they have svelte ankles which are well suited to distance running as it takes less energy to swing your leg. Now you have to be careful with this sort of data because in the wrong hands it can be used to justify racism or be used as an argument for nasty things like eugenics, but there is some sense to the idea that particular body types suit particular sports. It's why I could never run but I won judo medals when I was younger.

But the thing is that physiology isn't the only reason, there's also sociological factors. What's the other reason that Kenya produces great distance runners? Because distance running is what they do. In the 50's the Finns were the dominant power in distance running, and their physiology is much different. But there was an idea that distance running was was the Finns did, so that's what the folks with the raw materials to be elite caliber athletes gravitated towards. We're a nation of 4 or so million people, and we don't have a sport that "we" do. To put it another way, why is Usain Bolt the greatest sprinter in the history of the world? In part the reason is because he's Jamaican and grew up there, if he'd been born in the USA he might be a star wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys, if he'd been born in the UK he might be the new Kyle Walker.

I don't entirely disagree with you on astro football but my point was that the large degree of participation in it inaccurately skews the numbers of people playing football somewhat.

We're basically saying the same thing about demographics, but the point is that Turkey, Croatia, Nigeria whoever else I mentioned the mid sized nations they play football the right way*. If nothing else it suits them to play the way they do and they still produce players with the same level of technique, even if the overall teams aren't as good. If there was a sporting gene that explained why south americans and spanish in general tend to be around 5'6 with a lower centre of gravity then fine they've adapted football to suit them. That's what's great about football there isn't just one way to play it.

Ireland and England simply haven't adapted to the fact that the sport has moved on and tactically and technically the kick and rush style is being left behind.

What's worse is that we don't even have the players to play that kick and rush style anymore. The tactic was simple put the ball in their box and then don't let them out of their own half. It's football I don't like, but I can respect it when it's done right. To do it you need a mobile beanpole up front (Quinn - I'm picking these from past squads not just one squad) You need a striker with a bit of pace (Aldridge, Keane 10 years ago) you need accurate delivery (Stan, Irwin, Sheedy) Then most importantly you need lads with huge engines in the middle of the field to get box to box and stop them from playing (Keane, Houghton, Whelan, John fucking Sheridan in 1994 or McGrath when he had knees.) We don't have any of those things and now Trap has instilled a "retreat to the halfway line" approach which simply doesn't work. It worked for Italy because they could control the pace of the game through short accurate passing and know that they had the players to basically roam around the pitch and make things happen. Then when they lose the ball they retreat and make the opposition play through them. But you can't do it if you just lump it forward when you have it because you'd need Usain Bolt in midfield to get forward and support the front men.

Honestly can we pick players out who actually suit even that primitive system ?


That's why I'm saying give Mick McCarthy a go for now and work on the youth development as a priority. McCarthy will at least press teams higher up the pitch play a higher defensive line and will demand better delivery even then I think we come up short but the alternative is to try to do something we're not ready for.


* there is no one "right way" of course.

Italy are a pretty good example of the right and wrong way of doing things. They reached a point where there national game of controlled possession and defensive rigidity was being left behind and they started to change things, at club level Napoli were the first to really change things, they still hit on the counter but they did it with far more pace, played with wing backs and had 3 lads up front with pace to burn. Then Juve changed their system bringing in Vidal Assamoah and Marchisio to do Pirlo's running for him and they basically boss possession like a spanish side it's those two that inform how the national side play now. For Italy the old way was the wrong way. It shows in how entertaining the games there are now.

When Everton reverted to buying a big striker and hoofing it in the mid 90s it was "the wrong way" for the clubs history but it was the right thing for a team facing relegation. Even then Big Dunc was utilised in the same way as Fellani was last season, it wasn't big boomed 70 yard balls from the goalkeeper, we played long diagonals from the full backs and got our whole midfield making runs into the box. I didn't like it but it was effective.

For Ireland the issue is that the old way simply doesn't work anymore. When both sides lined up 4-4-2 it was easy to isolate centre halves by hoofing it long straight up the middle, which make no mistake that's exactly what we do, but, now with most sides playing at least one holding midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 it's easy to defend against us. Just drop the holding players deeper and close down the space. Everyone knows this, fucking Khasaksthan did this to us for christ sake.

Change won't happen overnight, one step at a time. McCarthy to placate the fair weathers and to at least put some fucking fight back into us and then after some heroic failures we can hopefully start looking at a new crop of lads who might be capable of playing a better style of football that suits us better.

On the GAA Rugby thing by the way, our lack of really big Niall Quinn style strikers can be attributed to the fact that lads that might have played in that position are playing GAA instead for example Corks entire midfield or Dublins half forwards but that means we adapt to what we have. i.e passing the ball to feet. and in fairness it should have happened years ago. Like around the time Brian Kerr tried to do it with the players he'd brought up playing that way.

 

[oh shit]

Yeah. We have a club-based culture which doesn't prioritise the production of technical players. The UK produces elite British olympians by narrow spending of deep resources, yet football which is supposedly swimming in cash has to import properly trained youngsters from elsewhere. What I was saying about education and training isn't the core problem, but it's relevant to the issue of demographics and how you use them. If you're asking parents to let their teenagers be trained intensely, which is obviously something that needs to be improved, you have to provide a system of doing so that doesn't require an all-or-nothing gamble on becoming a pro. This all seems to be improving these days though, I think England at least will have a much better team in about 5-10 years.

 

[washingcattle]

Yeah. We have a club-based culture which doesn't prioritise the production of technical players. The UK produces elite British olympians by narrow spending of deep resources, yet football which is supposedly swimming in cash has to import properly trained youngsters from elsewhere. What I was saying about education and training isn't the core problem, but it's relevant to the issue of demographics and how you use them. If you're asking parents to let their teenagers be trained intensely, which is obviously something that needs to be improved, you have to provide a system of doing so that doesn't require an all-or-nothing gamble on becoming a pro. This all seems to be improving these days though, I think England at least will have a much better team in about 5-10 years.

I always thought the American college system, while deeply corrupt and utterly flawed actually had some things going for it that could be adapted and if utilised properly would be a far better in the long run for both the clubs and the players.

England will do better to an extent but only so long as clubs like Everton and Southampton remain economically viable. If Man City's youth academy lives up to it's billing they'll be a major force but as usual it's the German and Spanish who have really done the business of youth development properly. Bayern and Barca seem to have a really well rounded approach to handling young players. I think I remeber Owen Hargreaves talking abut Bayern's youth set up is like going to college, which isn't hugely surprising since according to a German lad I know you can actually study football in school in Germany. Like leaving cert football. It's part of your PE course but it counts with regard to your final grade.

Yeah, I know right ? and there I was doing fucking biology and drawing dicks all over my book like a fool and then forgetting every fucking word of it directly afterwards.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Stan was worse but we still had better players during Stans stint in charge. That's why this is worse.

Dude, you're talking so much crap now it's not even funny. I just spelled out to you why the 2002 TEAM is on a par with this one. You said Trap was the worst manager, now you've changed your tune. You think Staunton had a better team with old Finnan, old Carsley, Kilbane, Andy Keogh, Paul McShane getting his game, etc etc. Team and squad quality was no better, if worse, and tactics were shambolic. Worse times than now.

Whatever, you've dug your heels in, and with others too, so I;m not wasting my energy on this shit with you anymore.

 

[Hector Grey]

Dubious beliefs? Show the belief system that isn't fucking dubious. He was stitched up. England's golden generation(tm) may actually have achieved something with Hoddle in charge during the nineties. The FA just thought he was too weird. Knobs. I mean.... thank god.

 

[washingcattle]

Dude, you're talking so much crap now it's not even funny. I just spelled out to you why the 2002 TEAM is on a par with this one. You said Trap was the worst manager, now you've changed your tune. You think Staunton had a better team with old Finnan, old Carsley, Kilbane, Andy Keogh, Paul McShane getting his game, etc etc. Team and squad quality was no better, if worse, and tactics were shambolic. Worse times than now.

Whatever, you've dug your heels in, and with others too, so I;m not wasting my energy on this shit with you anymore.

Yeah and you handily left out players that didn't suit you're hypothesis.

Yes I Think Stan had a better side to choose from that's why I said it.

How have I changed my tune about Trap ?

You'd be better off if you used your energy actually reading my posts rather than flying off the handle.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Yeah and you handily left out players that didn't suit you're hypothesis.

Yes I Think Stan had a better side to choose from that's why I said it.

How have I changed my tune about Trap ?

You'd be better off if you used your energy actually reading my posts rather than flying off the handle.

I listed every player in the 2002 team to show you that your theory about Ireland being in terminal decline was flakey (which you still ignore to suit your hypothesis) so I'm not going to do that again for your benefit. I picked some of the shit to give a sense of what we're talking about by better, but please do try to actually support your view that Stan's team and squad was markedly better. You're splitting hairs at the very best.

You 'changed your tune' by saying Trap was the worst manager. I pointed out that Stan was and you agreed. Still can't see that?

 

[washingcattle]

I listed every player in the 2002 team to show you that your theory about Ireland being in terminal decline was flakey (which you still ignore to suit your hypothesis) so I'm not going to do that again for your benefit. I picked some of the shit to give a sense of what we're talking about by better, but please do try to actually support your view that Stan's team and squad was markedly better. You're splitting hairs at the very best.

You 'changed your tune' by saying Trap was the worst manager. I pointed out that Stan was and you agreed. Still can't see that?

Suit yourself, for the record I agreed with you about Stan because to be honest I forgot the cunt existed for a while there.

The 2002 squad was way better than today, we missed out on the quarter finals of the WC by a cunt hair. 2006 had a strong enough first XI and fuck all in reserve. We still missed out on a playoff ny 1 point and GD even inspite of Stan.

You can say what you want about Carsley and Kilbane and the likes at least they had confidence.

Maybe that's the biggest thing that Trap has instilled in us now. Fear. Maybe I'm wrong maybe they are a better squad I'd love to think that, but honestly between the walk outs, the spats to and fro in the press and the absolute dog shit performances, fuck it. I have no faith in them and they have no faith in themselves.

Mick McCarthy to bring back the good craic and heroic failure, then if we do it right at youth level we could be okay again in 5-10 years.

 

[Jerry Twig]

The 2002 squad was way better than today, we missed out on the quarter finals of the WC by a cunt hair. 2006 had a strong enough first XI and fuck all in reserve. We still missed out on a playoff ny 1 point and GD even inspite of Stan.

Stan wasn't the coach for 2006 WC qualifiers. I despair, I really do.

 

[washingcattle]

Stan wasn't the coach for 2006 WC qualifiers. I despair, I really do.

I didn't say he was coach for the 2006 qualifiers I said he was coach in 2006. Which he was. January 2006 - October 2007 if you want to be exact. You really are a picky little pedant aren't you ?

 

[Jerry Twig]

So what does this mean then? 'We still missed out on a playoff ny 1 point and GD even inspite of Stan.' Stan missed by 10 points in 2008. Go on.

 

[washingcattle]

So what does this mean then? 'We still missed out on a playoff ny 1 point and GD even inspite of Stan.' Stan missed by 10 points in 2008. Go on.

Oh yeah, that was a bit of internet confusion on my part. Kerr missed out by one point because of the multiple slip ups against Isreal. He never really got a fair shake did he ?

I knew that didn't seem right when I looked it up. My bad. I also completely forgot that Germany and the Czech Republic were the two decent teams in that group.

All I really remember about that campaign was playing a gig in Waterford the night we lost to Cyprus and saying "No hurry sure it's Cyprus, even we can beat Cyprus." Then arriving in the venue where I saw the 5th Cypriot goal.

After that my Da and I tried to get as drunk as possible before every match. So it got fairly dark and blurry from then on. I think we literally stumbled out before the last minute equaliser against Cyprus at Croker.

Ah failure, drink it in lads, and get used to it.

Ha checking up on this shit on Wkipedia is gas, 72,000 turned up to watch us play Wales when we were already out. Imagine.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Is that an apology for calling me a 'pesky pedant' then? Not only did you not know it, you can't even look it up properly!!
And just to rub in how little you actually do seem to know, the reason there was 72,000 at that match (I was there, I'm guessing you weren't) is because it was Ireland's first competitive game in Croke Park.

Anyway, that's my lot with this shit.

 

[washingcattle]

Is that an apology for calling me a 'pesky pedant' then? Not only did you not know it, you can't even look it up properly!!
And just to rub in how little you actually do seem to know, the reason there was 72,000 at that match (I was there, I'm guessing you weren't) is because it was Ireland's first competitive game in Croke Park.

Anyway, that's my lot with this shit.

Yup, I blocked that whole sorry affair out.


Of course I was there and 72,000 turned out to go to Croke park rather than give a flying fuck about football. pretty typical of Irish football supporters no ?


And you'll always be a picky little pedant to me.

Suit yourself. You'll be back within a few hours flying off the handle about something. in about an hour anyway.

 

[ann post]

The thing you have to consider when talking about those countries is that football is the dominant sport there, we have a diluted pool of athletes due to GAA/Hurling/Rugby

yeah it'd be great if kids werent so steeped in the media blitz of the premier league, fifa and all that shit and and actually concentrated on GAA.

 

[ann post]

The problem in Ireland with GAA, hurling and rugby from a football perspective is that there's people playing them when they could be playing football.

twice in one thread.

ah here.

Mostly this thread is about how sport goes when made into a stupidly profitable entity.

 

[Richie]

Ah lads.. This is no time for squabbling, John Delaney is waiting on the results of our think tank.

Dubious beliefs? Show the belief system that isn't fucking dubious. He was stitched up. England's golden generation(tm) may actually have achieved something with Hoddle in charge during the nineties. The FA just thought he was too weird. Knobs. I mean.... thank god.

Well Trap was a card carrying member of Opus Dei, I suppose we could live with somebody who's into faith healing and has some zany ideas about disabled people.

The FAI appointed a Dutch fella with the amusing name of Ruud Dokter to take over the technical director role when Wim Koevermens jumped ship to manage India last year.. I'd love to hear what he thinks of the state of football in Ireland after a few months in the job. The impression I've got is of deep fissures between the various schoolboy leagues, senior leagues, League of Ireland sides, and the FAI, with everybody protecting their own little territory, it sounds like an unholy mess. Ultimately we need to be copying countries like Germany and Belgium and their 10 year plans for success but when we don't even have a functioning 'football pyramid' where do you start..

 

[Hector Grey]

We need to sort out grass roots level football, no question, but lets not forget that what's happening to English football is happening to Irish ( and scottish) footy. The Brits complain that young English lads aren't getting a shot in the Premier League cos of expensive and inexpensive foreign imports. Well, what chance do our boys have? HOw often are we hearing about some whizzkid at some preimer team who we end up seeing plaing for Plymouth five years later. Remember the time Ireland's U-19 were winning shit. Not many of them made it. We need a bigger league, a place where youngfellas can learn their trade to a point where they might be bought by a Prem team. It's happened before.