Fight For Women's Right to Choose! (1 Viewer)

[broken arm]

any stats yet Janer?

on a slight tangent......... don't follow janers line but i listened to a long documentary on the radio regarding the story below. it isn't an isolated incident in germany.

Woman arrested as nine babies are found dead in garden

German police have unearthed the remains of nine newborn babies buried in flowerpots and buckets, and have arrested a woman on suspicion of manslaughter.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1541081,00.html

obviously the discussion in the documentary revolved around the issue of abortion, regional social norms/taboos, support infrastructure for women/men etc etc.

the main thing that interested me was in a previous discussion on thumped about womb rights and abortion I was trying to hypothesize a scenario where the state may or should intervene in the womans right to or to not undergo an abortion. I gave the example of a woman having multiple abortions as an artisitic endeavour (as a joke) but this situation isn't far off what is in this article (although what happened in germany had nothing to do wih art).

am i contributing to the debate? i don't know....

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Can it seriously be suggested that -

If a woman has four kids and cannot afford another, and chooses an abortion that it's murder?

If a woman is raped and pregnant and chooses an abortion that it's murder?

If a woman chooses to have abortion as a means of controlling her own biological and reproductive processes that it's murder?

calling it murder makes a black & white issue out of a non black & white issue. the baby is a baby and the best word for killing it because you cant afford to raise it or because you dont want to carry it for nine months or whatever depends i suppose on the particular situation each individual mother finds herself in.

 

[La La]

wow. that is seriously upsetting, but thanks for posting it. i wasn't aware of that yarn before.

i would be curisou as to the woman's situation - were there enablers? (from what i gather from reading this, the babies were carried to term and then disposed of). someone must have known what was going on.

it is crueller to behave in the aforementioned way than to get an abortion, wouldn't you agree?

this kind of behaviour is very disturbing and makes me wonder what lack of access these women must have to getting an abortion.

im also guessing these births were clandestine and no pre-natal check ups had been carried out as surely the hospital staff would be able to detect something was up maybe?

i dont know. cant think clearly after reading that, head is all boggle.

on a slight tangent......... don't follow janers line but i listened to a long documentary on the radio regarding the story below. it isn't an isolated incident in germany.

Woman arrested as nine babies are found dead in garden



http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1541081,00.html

obviously the discussion in the documentary revolved around the issue of abortion, regional social norms/taboos, support infrastructure for women/men etc etc.

the main thing that interested me was in a previous discussion on thumped about womb rights and abortion I was trying to hypothesize a scenario where the state may or should intervene in the womans right to or to not undergo an abortion. I gave the example of a woman having multiple abortions as an artisitic endeavour (as a joke) but this situation isn't far off what is in this article (although what happened in germany had nothing to do wih art).

am i contributing to the debate? i don't know....

 

[broken arm]

wow. that is seriously upsetting, but thanks for posting it. i wasn't aware of that yarn before.

part of the documentary dealt with the "drop off hatch system" they have in germany (and other coutries) where you can bring the baby to term and the anonymously drop it in the hatch and the baby will be taken care of by the state/taxpayer. Now this links to the particular cultural norms in that region that will influence the support structures available and may have condition the actions of the mother (my interpretation not included in the documentary).

but the main thing this highlights to me is the complexity of where "rights of the mother" start and finish and how they can be contextualised in regional/cultural contexts. Which would preferable? 9 abortions? 9 babies left at the hatch? and ultimately if it is the womens decision alone should we even be bothering talking about this?

I'm not a social scientist or legal eagle so I'm kind of making this up as I go along..

 

[magicbastarder]

calling it murder makes a black & white issue out of a non black & white issue. the baby is a baby and the best word for killing it because you cant afford to raise it or because you dont want to carry it for nine months or whatever depends i suppose on the particular situation each individual mother finds herself in.

yes, it's very much a issue of lots of grey areas, but that does not take from the fact that someone is entitled to think that a foetus is as entitled to life as say, a five year old. and it's the extension of that belief which causes things to become tricky, not the belief itself.

 

[oh shit]

the baby is a baby

it's only black and white if you think everyone should be forced to agree with your quasi-religious idea that a foetus is the same thing as a baby.

edit: sorry - i was a bit aggressive there

 

[La La]

part of the documentary dealt with the "drop off hatch system" they have in germany (and other coutries) where you can bring the baby to term and the anonymously drop it in the hatch and the baby will be taken care of by the state/taxpayer. Now this links to the particular cultural norms in that region that will influence the support structures available and may have condition the actions of the mother (my interpretation not included in the documentary).

but the main thing this highlights to me is the complexity of where "rights of the mother" start and finish and how they can be contextualised in regional/cultural contexts. Which would preferable? 9 abortions? 9 babies left at the hatch? and ultimately if it is the womens decision alone should we even be bothering talking about this?

I'm not a social scientist or legal eagle so I'm kind of making this up as I go along..

i'm aware of the hatch system - it's been in use for a while in Japan.

you make some very good points regarding the rights of the mother in cases like this when there is a clear abuse of her ability to bear children.

what you ask regarding the rights of the motehr in regional and social contexts is the 64 million dollar question: i just don't know.

but I do think the example is more extreme than most - I know babies are abandoned more often than I would like - but at the end of the day my belief that a woman has a right to chose is unwavering.

that's not to say it is appalling when caes like the aforementioned occur - but were it the otehr way around and women were forced to crry a baby to term against their wil you wuold have a similar situation i think.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

i wasnt sneaking anything in - i wouldnt have posted it if i didnt want it to be seen

edit: this seemingly random post about nothing was in response to oh shits post

 

[Scientician 0.8]

How many pages do you reckon this thread's gonna be before Janer gets bored of winding people up?

 

[Janer]

Can it seriously be suggested that -

If a woman has four kids and cannot afford another, and chooses an abortion that it's murder?/YES fucking YES

If a woman is raped and pregnant and chooses an abortion that it's murder?/YES, she can hand the infant up for adoption.

If a woman chooses to have abortion as a means of controlling her own biological and reproductive processes that it's murder?/YES

The "abortion = murder" argument is one used by anti-women activists because they know that an emotive argument involving use of the word "murder" is one of the few ways in which they can get attention for themselves/No it's about not snuffing out the life of a human being.

Jesus u take the biscuit....I thought I had a soft tooth

 

[socmot]

I thought I had a soft tooth

From what I can see, the only thing you have is a hatred of women and a lack of respect for the choices they might make.

 

[Janer]

How many pages do you reckon this thread's gonna be before Janer gets bored of winding people up?

Well while some of the joking is er joking I do believe that the infant has the right to life and more so after Scrotums "3 reasons" if anything I even take myself more seriously after reading that post.

 

[Janer]

I thought I had a soft tooth

From what I can see, the only thing you have is a hatred of women and a lack of respect for the choices they might make.

aaahhh because someone is against abortion they hate women chestnut.

what about the infants choice????

 

[Lefty Frizzell]

 

[Janer]

pppffff re-run.

 

[Lefty Frizzell]

pppffff re-run.

You're not worth the time.

 

[classic seanc]

I hope everyone get’s involved in this debate!

 

[Janer]

Feels like this is the 69th debate on abortion here at Thumped....
Is there another subject where I am for and everyone else is against?
What about the Drink Drive limit raised to 2 pints?

 

[broken arm]

Feels like this is the 69th debate on abortion here at Thumped....
Is there another subject where I am for and everyone else is against?
What about the Drink Drive limit raised to 2 pints?

2 pints over what time period? what weight of body?

 

[oh shit]

don't you mean mass?