An Irishwoman's Diary (1 Viewer)

[jane]

Very provocative and convincing book about the genetic origins of human violence (predominantly male) and the prevalence of almost universally patriarchal societies throughout human history. Since reading it I can't help but see our primal chimp-shared ape ancestors being reflected in people's actions all the time. Of course I must now read some counterarguments. I'll let Amazon summarise it for me.


If you harbor a sneaking suspicion that men are a herd of ignoble savages, then this book is for you. Authors Wrangham and Peterson will confirm your instincts. It turns out that hyperviolent social behavior is deeply rooted in male human genes and common among our closest male primate relatives. Rapes, beatings and killings are as much a part of life among the great apes as they are among us. The authors try to conclude on some upbeat notes that ring hollow, but their science reveals much about the dark side of human nature.

The 'hollow upbeat' notes, which I did not find as hollow as this reviewer, relate to some chapters on bonobos, and how their societies differ significantly from humans and chimps.

Hm, sounds interesting and thought-provoking, but I'm always wary of evolution-based arguments. It's very difficult to make them sound anything other than reductive because we are not apes, although we do resemble them genetically.

There are so many different types of violence, even that which is gendered (and there is a gender element to most violence, I'm sure), that I steer clear of anything that uses a social category to make a scientific argument, or a scientific category to make a social claim. It's all filtered through culture, even with the apes, who may not be acting solely out of raw biological instinct themselves.

Obviously, there are instincts involved in all of our behaviour, and even stuff, for me, like thinking babies are cute, or feeling overwhelmingly emotional about the cuteness of babies at certain times of the month -- those have to be in some way biological or instinctive, but they're still filterd through culture. Also, not all women have that.

I'm not gonna comment on the book, though, since I haven't read it, and I'm sure there are a lot of interesting points in it. Does it lay out enough of the caveats, do you think, to be of real benefit?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

It's far easier to condemn middle class South Dublin boys.

People's reaction might be different if it were inner city salt-of-the-earth lads.

Indeed would they have backed off as easily?

True, but the kind of behaviour she describes and the way they can't see the harm or why she is so upset is generally how pissed over-privelaged kids behave.

I can't really picture some white hoodied scummer trying the same stunt.

 

[magicbastarder]

Its all the more horrific because they were middle class south dublin boys.......

and they never get into trouble?

anyway, what the gardai should do is, instead of impounding cocaine, they should impregnate it with syphillis, and release it onto the market. granted, they'll only be able to do this to a smallish percentage of the coke out there, but people will become far too paranoid about taking coke, and the market will collapse.

 

[cephalopod]

Hm, sounds interesting and thought-provoking, but I'm always wary of evolution-based arguments. It's very difficult to make them sound anything other than reductive because we are not apes, although we do resemble them genetically.

There are so many different types of violence, even that which is gendered (and there is a gender element to most violence, I'm sure), that I steer clear of anything that uses a social category to make a scientific argument, or a scientific category to make a social claim. It's all filtered through culture, even with the apes, who may not be acting solely out of raw biological instinct themselves.

Obviously, there are instincts involved in all of our behaviour, and even stuff, for me, like thinking babies are cute, or feeling overwhelmingly emotional about the cuteness of babies at certain times of the month -- those have to be in some way biological or instinctive, but they're still filterd through culture. Also, not all women have that.

I'm not gonna comment on the book, though, since I haven't read it, and I'm sure there are a lot of interesting points in it. Does it lay out enough of the caveats, do you think, to be of real benefit?

Well I'm no social scientist, or anthropologist or 'owt, so I'm always wary of getting involved in discussions on these things and being revealed as uninformed, but the main thrust of the book is that male violence is more an evolutionary trait than cultural trait in humans, though cultural aspects also play a part. It is a very well known book though, I think it is one of the key texts in the field. I believe it was controversial too, but like I said, I'm new to this stuff and wish to now read some counterarguments.

 

[therealjohnny]

ah but emmeber that episode of Quincy where the guy puts rat poison in the city's supply of heroin( ...bit sketchy on the details there)

and the next thing theres his own son foaming at the mouth on hospital gurney!!


a lesson to all I think

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

ah but emmeber that episode of Quincy where the guy puts rat poison in the city's supply of heroin( ...bit sketchy on the details there)

and the next thing theres his own son foaming at the mouth on hospital gurney!!


a lesson to all I think

oh god.
doesnt the heroin sometimes be infected with some kind of flesh eating bacteria?

necrotizing fasciitis - thats the one

 

[cephalopod]

Hm, sounds interesting and thought-provoking, but I'm always wary of evolution-based arguments. It's very difficult to make them sound anything other than reductive because we are not apes, although we do resemble them genetically.

We are apes though. There are two sets of apes. The great apes and lesser apes. And humans, along with orang-utans, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas comprise the great apes.

 

[therealjohnny]

I have nothing against chimps

but they're not as great as gorillas

IMO

 

[Mormon Nailer]

i've said it already.

ALL HAIL TECHNO VIKING

cleaning the streets. protecting the females and techno kids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4

That is amazing

There's something about watching people dancing to techno that really freaks me out - they are so zombified and trancelike - It always struck me as odd that crusties and the like who are spout about individualism so much always listen to techno wank, which seems to be about the exact opposite to me.

Techno tomy ears is the soundtrack to bovine consumerism and empty hedonism.

 

[cephalopod]

and they never get into trouble?

anyway, what the gardai should do is, instead of impounding cocaine, they should impregnate it with syphillis, and release it onto the market. granted, they'll only be able to do this to a smallish percentage of the coke out there, but people will become far too paranoid about taking coke, and the market will collapse.

I was trying to be funny or ironic or something in that post. Just commenting on the fact that she grouped them and ascertained them a social background etc on the basis of their accent and also wondering why she made this point

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Male violence is the sad and ugly flip-side of the invaluable creative impulses that have seen men shape many of the most admirable aspects of human civilisation. Men are brooding, skulking, lusty demons who wobble on the border between beauty and blackness. This is really hot. God, I love men.
Discuss.

 

[classic seanc]

People need to punch each other in the face more. SRSLY.

 

[jane]

We are apes though. There are two sets of apes. The great apes and lesser apes. And humans, along with orang-utans, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas comprise the great apes.

True 'nuff.

I should have said something like over-comparing species of primate. Like just because we all have thumbs and get into fistfights doesn't mean all those fistfights are necessarily genetic. Gorillas are actually quite peaceful animals, as I know from television.

And that yes, violence is part of the animal world (including humans) , but there's usually a set of rules or conditions around it. I wonder do humans have a higher rate of gratuitous violence? I mean, would a similar thing happen to Eileen Bonobosby on Chimpanzeeson St?

Or am I now just spinning it as if gratuitous violence doesn't have some sort of impetus? Like the time I went babysitting this kid and his ma told me he didn't really cry. Except when he was hungry. Or tired. Or cold. Or warm. Or something was chafing him. Or he needed his nappy changed. Or he was bored. Or he had something in his eye or on his face. Or he felt threatened. The child cried the whole fucking time.

 

[CitySickness]

I believe it was controversial too, but like I said, I'm new to this stuff and wish to now read some counterarguments.

Frans De Waal is a primatologist with a somewhat less grim view of the planet of the apes. Check out Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Involved

 

[CitySickness]

I was trying to be funny or ironic or something in that post. Just commenting on the fact that she grouped them and ascertained them a social background etc on the basis of their accent and also wondering why she made this point

Because of the commonly-held assumption that poverty is the only circumstance that breeds violence, and she's forgotten the golden rule: shitheads are everywhere you look.

 

[cephalopod]

Ah but gorrilas are only fairly peaceful if you consider routine infanticide peaceful! Male silverbacks, if usurping the leader of a group to become the new alpha, will often kill the previous alpha male's offspring.

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

pretty shit thing to happen, but anyone with a bit
of cop would lock their doors while driving by a group
of drunks spilling out onto the street

doesn't take desmond morris to figure that one out

 

[cephalopod]

The world rally is coming to Sligo this weekend

I'm going out with my notebook and doing some cultural anthropology studies from the front-line

 

[jane]

Ah but gorrilas are only fairly peaceful if you consider routine infanticide peaceful! Male silverbacks, if usurping the leader of a group to become the new alpha, will often kill the previous alpha male's offspring.

Do they have community sports facilities?

But srsly, though, I'm just saying that when we focus on using biological/evolutionary explanations for violence (just as when we over-emphasise the lack of community sports facilities) it ignores a lot of the real complexity of human behaviour, as well as the complexity of animal behaviour. I'm not going to argue that violence doesn't exist among groups, it's just that when we read animal behaviour, we read it in our terms, and we're probably influenced by how those animals react to us.

Then there's the flip side, where fundamentalist Christians said that March of the Penguins could set a good example for the Christian Family. Everyone pretty much laughed. Saw the point of what was being said, but laughed anyway. Kinda the same way I see the primate violence thing. Like, yeah, we can see that there are similarities, but what we do with the knowledge of those behaviours is what matters. And when it comes to violence, I can't see many genuinely productive solutions that would involve a material reliance on research on non-human primate violence.

 

[Vinnie]

Look at it this way, if it hadn't happened what was she gonna write about? An uneventful drive home? She'd have been fired that very same day. Those dudes saved her job.