this auld wan that's up the duff (1 Viewer)

[MDR]

I've given my views on all this at length and am not seeking anyone's agreement to them. I don't feel that men should be excluded from a decision on abortion. It's not a question of force it's a question of parity of esteem between fathers and mothers. That's just how I think and feel. Be amazed all yiz like, but it isn't so astonishing that someone could have a different point of view.

I can't waste another day at work on this. I've given my contribtuion so yiz can make up your own minds.

 

[MDR]

If two people have consensual sex and girl becomes pregnant unintentionally her only way to avoid carrying to term is to prove that she was raped in the first place.

Or to get the agreement of the father than an abortion is the right way to go.

 

[egg_]

So yes, while the legal system doesn't necessarily treat any victim of a violent crime with any real sensitivity, rape cases are particularly bad ...

I completely agree

... as they are very much underlined by a prevalent belief in society that women are whores and liars.

!!!
Can we move this to another thread? The whores and liars thing? Can you really make a convincing case that there is a prevalent belief in Irish society that women (in particular, as opposed to virtuous men) are whores and liars, and that this is one of the reasons Irish people tend to be anti-abortion and to be nasty to women in rape cases? If so I'd like to hear it. Please don't just post me a link to some reference materials, I'd like to hear it in your own words

But simply bringing up the legal system, or the underlying causes for these ideas in the present -- which are indeed very relevant -- has resulted in dismissively simple, glib responses

And why do you think that is? Because you've (inadvertently) insulted anyone who disagrees with you by suggesting that they want control over your womb, that deep down they think women are whore and liars, that the reason they disagree is that they can't handle the truth, that they are not left-wing enough ... etc. I'm lecturing you, I know, I don't have any right to and I'm sorry, but you're lecturing me too

 

[mazzyianne]

I was thinking about this earlier, and getting into the theory side (sorry ) forgot about it, but

Imagine... (extending the idea) that you have a one night stand with some guy, the condom breaks. In the morning, you go to get the morning after pill and he goes, no, you cant, I'll look after the kid if you're preggers. Just pop it out and I'll be on my way.

Wahahahahahahahaha
ahem.

 

[Buzzo]

would you say there is ever an instance when the mother-to-be is not in a fit position to make the decision to abort - meaning that there is a need to intervene?

p.s. i think womens bodies are better than mens bodies

It all sounds a bit vague, but surely that would mean she's not in a fit position to be a mother either... presuming you're talking about some kind of mental incapacity...

 

[jane]

I've given my views on all this at length and am not seeking anyone's agreement to them. I don't feel that men should be excluded from a decision on abortion. It's not a question of force it's a question of parity of esteem between fathers and mothers. That's just how I think and feel. Be amazed all yiz like, but it isn't so astonishing that someone could have a different point of view.

I can't waste another day at work on this. I've given my contribtuion so yiz can make up your own minds.

I think you should defend what you've said, Ro. You can't just chuck a grenade like that and go, "Let's agree to disagree." You've made everyone else jump through hoops, and now you have to at least say how this law should be defined and enforced.

Also, could you please point out where anyone argued against men having a say on reproduction?


I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't help thinking of this:

 

[ICUH8N]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone drop the handmaid's tale bomb...

 

[ICUH8N]

*emits spores

 

[La La]

I'm quite shocked. I really am. The notion of forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth against their will is truly one of the most oppressive, regressive ideas I've heard from apparently educated people in a long, long time.

Imagine if that law was passed, that a man had the final say in whether or not a woman would endure pregnancy and labour, and it was only the thin end of the wedge..... genuinely scary.

and increases the chances of backroom coathanger abortions. terrifying.

 

[egg_]

Jesus, ye all talk so fast, and so much! There are 10 posts in the time it takes me to write one

 

[mazzyianne]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone drop the handmaid's tale bomb...

Everyone was too busy using the 'womb card*'.

*most hilarious part of thread so far, deserves a prize.

 

[broken arm]

It all sounds a bit vague, but surely that would mean she's not in a fit position to be a mother either... presuming you're talking about some kind of mental incapacity...

yea i know totally vague. it's all hypothetical. but the question is really if there was a possibility of that being the case how should it be managed? lots of laws are in place on the assumption of a possibility. And if you are saying she is not fit to be a mother do you make sure she goes full term and then take the baby off her or do you knidly ask her to abort?

i don't think there should be laws but whatever

 

[jane]

I completely agree


!!!
Can we move this to another thread? The whores and liars thing? Can you really make a convincing case that there is a prevalent belief in Irish society that women (in particular, as opposed to virtuous men) are whores and liars, and that this is one of the reasons Irish people tend to be anti-abortion and to be nasty to women in rape cases? If so I'd like to hear it. Please don't just post me a link to some reference materials, I'd like to hear it in your own words

You didn't want my own words, so I gave you statistics that suggest that there is still a belief that women have a tendency to lie about rape. Now you want my own words. Which is it?

And why do you think that is? Because you've (inadvertently) insulted anyone who disagrees with you by suggesting that they want control over your womb, that deep down they think women are whore and liars, that the reason they disagree is that they can't handle the truth, that they are not left-wing enough ... etc. I'm lecturing you, I know, I don't have any right to and I'm sorry, but you're lecturing me too

I am not trying to accuse ANYONE of this. I am simply pointing out that there are perceptions in society that WE ALL HAVE, that can sometimes manifest themselves in behaviours that perpetuate these harmful perceptions. That's all. We all have them, EVEN ON THE LEFT. We sometimes think that our left wing politics mean we are immune to the prejudices we claim to be against, but we can sometimes become so comfortable and 'right on' about these things that we forget. If people are insulted by the fact that none of us is devoid of internal sexism or racism, then that isn't really my problem.

If you want an example from my own life, in the last few years, I have tried to make a real effort to absolutely resist and challenge statements like, "Men are bastards." Why? Because a lot of people who do this don't realise that even throwaway comments can grow into something bigger and more damaging. I think the main reason for the really scary feminist and anti-lefty backlash in society is that people, yes, are afraid to see reality. But I also think that we have a special responsibility to explore our own behaviours and see where we sometimes say things that are better left unsaid.

I was absolutely not accusing anyone of anything of the sort.

Also, Irish society is different from many other western societies because of the complex relationship between colonial past and catholic nation-state. On the one hand, the relationship between colonial powers and native Other actually feminises the native. Irish males - and not very long ago -- were often described as the antithesis of 'proper' or 'civil' masculinity. Sometimes this was manifested as a description that painted them as weak and feminised. Other times, they were described as if they were insatiable sex-beasts. Women, too were described in paradoxical ways. The GAA was, in part, established as a resistance to British rule, but part of this was to showcase just how 'manly' the IRish actually were, despite the feminised descriptions of them by the British. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that gender politics are very real, and the Irish context is really very specific. And there are a lot of things left unexplored that really need to be.

 

[krystal]

I for one am deeply insulted by that.

Jesus, ye all talk so fast, and so much! There are 10 posts in the time it takes me to write one

 

[MDR]

I think you should defend what you've said, Ro. You can't just chuck a grenade like that and go, "Let's agree to disagree." You've made everyone else jump through hoops, and now you have to at least say how this law should be defined and enforced.

Also, could you please point out where anyone argued against men having a say on reproduction?


I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't help thinking of this:

http://a1204.g.akamai.net/7/1204/1401/04021016011/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/7380000/7382164.jpg

It's one thing for men to have a say, it's a different thing for them to have rights, which is what I am arguing for. Your argument gives absolutely no rights to men whatsoever. It would leave the entire say in the hands of the mother; the father would be nowhere.

 

[jane]

Everyone was too busy using the 'womb card*'.

*most hilarious part of thread so far, deserves a prize.

The lesson in all this is that everyone should be careful in the high-stakes game of womb poker.

 

[jane]

It's one thing for men to have a say, it's a different thing for them to have rights, which is what I am arguing for. Your argument gives absolutely no rights to men whatsoever. It would leave the entire say in the hands of the mother; the father would be nowhere.

You haven't answered my questions.

 

[krystal]

but what we all have repeatedly said is that this is actually the lesser of the two evils and that abortion is always going to be unfair on someone involved. So there is no solution - you'll never be happy unless you get the right to overrule a decision you dislike and we as women would be deeply unhappy to hand over our reproductive rights and decisions to a man.
It's moot, there is never going to be a workable solution to this situation unless we all become dual-sex robo-dolls and start gestating our young in empty coke cans. Or men turn into sea horses.

It's one thing for men to have a say, it's a different thing for them to have rights, which is what I am arguing for. Your argument gives absolutely no rights to men whatsoever. It would leave the entire say in the hands of the mother; the father would be nowhere.

 

[krystal]

yes, I shan't ever give my heart to anyone lest I be accused of 'playing the heart card'. Truly the fucking stupidest most ignorant LAME thing said on this thread so far.

The lesson in all this is that everyone should be careful in the high-stakes game of womb poker.

 

[mazzyianne]

You haven't answered my questions.

Or addressed the fact that giving the right to decide to men takes it away from women, leave us as the ones with no rights.
and forced to carry a baby we don't want.