[Sunday Business Post] Irish music industry hit by downloading (1 Viewer)

[coast to coast]

I dunno. You're listening to The White Stripes. Do you think you would ever have heard of them if it was not for the fact that their records were initially released on Sympathy For The Record Industry with all the marketing/cool by association/PR pushing that being on a label like that entails? Suppose they never had a record label and just released stuff themselves. Do you think you would have eventually stumbled across them by randomly clicking on band's myspace pages?

My brother is listening to the White Stripes at home, stupid layabout!

I can't remember how I first heard of the White Stripes, but I only bought them cos I heard the single or saw the video.

The point I've been making all along, is that the economic structures of the music industry have been upended by technology and its up to everybody to react and make it work for themselves.

Artists and record companies aren't enemies. They sort of need one another, altho an artists can make and release a record by himself/herself/themselves and a record company now generate pop stars using television.

If it came to everyone trawling through myspace for decent bands they'd probably reach a limit of how much they could sell themselves and require a record comapny type set up to deal with demand. But neither artists (the most vulnerable economic being of them all, for a variety of reasons) nor record companies big or small, nor small indy record shops can expect the whole system to stay the same while the world all around them changes. No government is going to help them survive, unfortunately.

The are many possible ways of funding a future for artists, who will doubtless continue to exist. Be it government sponsorship, private sponsorship (then you have to deal with the whole artisitic integrity thing) a broadband media levy from IMRO/Bord Scannan/whatever or just basically making the internet product better, lossless sound quality for example should clearly be the way forward as broadband gets faster and iPods get bigger memory.

 

[aoboa]

You also might argue that if the person isn't listening to the music they aren't really violating any intellectual property rights.

The arguement is about the 'value' of music - read the post again.

 

[coast to coast]

I'm sorry but that's rubbish.
You're the first person I've ever heard say that trawling through myspace makes finding new music really easy.

I record music cos I have a 9-5 job. If I was depending on it for a living I'd have starved to death long ago. I do it cos I love music and I like it when other people enjoy my music.
Like I said earlier in the thread releasing music for free is unsatisfying to the point of it negatively affecting your attitude to your own music.
There is no reason to do it.
You get no feedback.
You have no physical artifact that marks what you've done as a body of work.
A lot of bands will record for the simple reason that they'd like to put out a cd or record to catalogue a period of creativity or whatever.
If this all goes to random mp3s floating around in the ether without a context - I personally won't record another album ever again cos there'll be no point and I imagine a lot of bands will feel the same.

I have a 9-5 job, I record music when I can, I don't get any money for it and I'm not about to stop recording whether I do or not.

I'm sorry you feel like you're about to give up, I'm not. Maybe I'll change when I'm older, but I'm sure there'll be someone coming up to take my place.

As for the whole contextless mp3 things, if thats the way things go, thats the way things go. But Like I've said before, my assumptions that a) there will always be a supply of musicians and artists and b)there is no reason that profits will spiral continually to zero as long as there is a demand for music and physical product are ones that I stick by.

 

[aoboa]

I have a 9-5 job, I record music when I can, I don't get any money for it and I'm not about to stop recording whether I do or not.

I'm sorry you feel like you're about to give up, I'm not. Maybe I'll change when I'm older, but I'm sure there'll be someone coming up to take my place.

As for the whole contextless mp3 things, if thats the way things go, thats the way things go. But Like I've said before, my assumptions that a) there will always be a supply of musicians and artists and b)there is no reason that profits will spiral continually to zero as long as there is a demand for music and physical product are ones that I stick by.

Have you ever put out a record?
If not, do you hope to?

 

[coast to coast]

The arguement is about the 'value' of music - read the post again.

It is a pretty careless way to treat music I agree. As regards a moral argument, I've said above that I do realise that it wrong to do this in many ways.

As regards an economic argument, if music is effectively free on the internet (bar computer/broadband/line rental costs, etc), then yes it is very hard for it retain any financial value.

Music however retains a value beyond economics in that people (to make a broad sweeping generalization!) enjoy it and always want it, in a variety of forms.

My other reply about "not listening to something not being an infringement of intellectual property" is a bit stupid and not thought out and frankly its another topic altogether, just a tangent my mind drifted off into rather than a serious objection to anything you had said.

 

[coast to coast]

Have you ever put out a record?
If not, do you hope to?

No and yeh I suppose I do hope to. But I haven't tried to put a record out yet.

 

[billygannon]

b)there is no reason that profits will spiral continually to zero as long as there is a demand for music and physical product

The thing is there is no physical product.

 

[aoboa]

The thing is there is no physical product.

Or soon won't be except for really expensive niche markets.

 

[coast to coast]

The thing is there is no physical product.

What I mean is that I don't think CDs/DVDs will disappear anytime soon, there is still a demand for them. People haven't stopped buying them because of filesharing, just not as many people are buying records as before.

 

[aoboa]

No and yeh I suppose I do hope to. But I haven't tried to put a record out yet.

Sorry, it was a bit of a loaded question but here goes anyway:
Okay - so you're working on stuff, recording at home, hoping that someday you're gonna put out a record. Would you still have the same ambition and enthusiasm if all that record was gonna be was a few files on the internet?
Someone could download one track and judge you solely on that and decide that you were rubbish, never giving your work another chance. In the context of the album that one track might work really well but out of context might seem different.

There are too many other reasons why as a musician this is probably the worst way things could go but they're far to depressing to spell out - the above example is bad enough.

 

[broken arm]

The thing is there is no physical product.

from todays guardian

HMV bucks trend with record sales figures


HMV is hoping a bumper line-up for albums and rampant demand for computer games will help it keep up the momentum from a record Christmas.

..........It also shook off a troubled music market to increase CD sales. The shares soared after it predicted full-year pre-tax profits would be near the top end of City expectations at about £48m.
.................................Although music sales around the world have been under pressure, the retailer was upbeat about the year ahead. Fox said the physical music market was down 12% at Christmas but HMV sales rose 2%. "Our view is that when there is good material and good releases the music industry will prosper. We are pretty confident.".................................
Backstory

CD sales have been falling for years but HMV bucked the trend this Christmas and is predicting strong sales ahead thanks to an album line-up that includes new releases from U2, Madonna, Kasabian, Keane and Dido.
Other music industry figures have also said that 2008 could bring some much-needed respite thanks to new material from big-selling artists after a particularly tough 2007, which saw a continuation of the trend towards the cherry-picking of single tracks online.
HMV's chief, Simon Fox, asserted yesterday: "I think there is life in the CD yet." Gift-buying accounts for 25%-30% of all CD purchases in the UK, or some 33m CDs a year, according to the UK music industry association BPI. An estimated 40%-45% of CDs bought in the last three months of the year are presents.
"A sizeable chunk of the year's music sales occur in the run-up to Christmas; labels have been quick to capitalise on this demand and expand consumer choice by reissuing albums with additional songs and other extras such as videos," said BPI's head, Geoff Taylor.

 

[aoboa]

What I mean is that I don't think CDs/DVDs will disappear anytime soon, there is still a demand for them. People haven't stopped buying them because of filesharing, just not as many people are buying records as before.

CD sales dropped by 20% globally last year.

 

[Vinnie]

that includes new releases from U2, Madonna, Kasabian, Keane and Dido

Ah jaysus

 

[aoboa]

from todays guardian

Is that not just the Christmas HMV Token phenomena?

 

[broken arm]

Is that not just the Christmas HMV Token phenomena?

i'm sure it is. they say 40-45% of CDs bought in the last three months are presents.

i just thought it was interesting that they admit if there is a raft of good music there will be sales (even if it's everything that i think is shite- kasbian, keane etc) - which in turn means that if there are jitters in the market the mainstream music industry gets more conservative leading to a greater downturn in quality and sales.

 

[broken arm]

Also - if you look at any other aspect of the retail sector the situation is worse.

 

[snakybus]

Well, I'm 35 and I'm releasing a CD in the very near future. And I've released lots of records in the past. It'll be available as a download as well.

Doesn't music change all the time? I mean, it's not that people don't value it as much now, but that their eperience is something different. You could say that in the days of vinyl being the main thing that people bought, this was a cheapened experience compared to, say, listening to an orchestra. Which was different than sitting around listening to your grandad and his friends playing trad tunes. Which was a different experience than that of those who might have experienced music as part of a tribal ritual.

 

[coast to coast]

Sorry, it was a bit of a loaded question but here goes anyway:
Okay - so you're working on stuff, recording at home, hoping that someday you're gonna put out a record. Would you still have the same ambition and enthusiasm if all that record was gonna be was a few files on the internet?
Someone could download one track and judge you solely on that and decide that you were rubbish, never giving your work another chance. In the context of the album that one track might work really well but out of context might seem different.

There are too many other reasons why as a musician this is probably the worst way things could go but they're far to depressing to spell out - the above example is bad enough.

A few files on the internet, no matter how much free and easily dismissable still represent the work you've done. If you're happy with it yourself then thats all you can expect (unfortunately, given that no one is gonna pay!) The fear of failure, rejection and misunderstanding surely plagues any artist, no matter how the work is produced and distributed wouldn't you agree?

 

[snakybus]

Not sure what I'm driving at there, actually. I guess I'm saying there's no point complaining about it, you can't stop people's hunger for music in their lives, and you can't shape how it's experienced or enjoyed. And it seems to me that if you look at the big picture, it has been changing all the time and this is just one new change that might cause a few casualties. But it's not the "end of music" or whatever. There was music before there were formats, labels, technologies. I mean, there was music before there were words!

 

[coast to coast]

Not sure what I'm driving at there, actually. I guess I'm saying there's no point complaining about it, you can't stop people's hunger for music in their lives, and you can't shape how it's experienced or enjoyed. And it seems to me that if you look at the big picture, it has been changing all the time and this is just one new change that might cause a few casualties. But it's not the "end of music" or whatever. There was music before there were formats, labels, technologies. I mean, there was music before there were words!

Well said!