[Sunday Business Post] Irish music industry hit by downloading (1 Viewer)

[aoboa]

i think its a incorrect to say that because nobody pays for music then nobody must value it. people may consume more music that they dont value these days because its free but good music will still have the same value to people who are open to it as it always has regardless of whether they take the time to express their appreciation to the music's creator. i've always thought that the enjoyment i get out of a good album is beyond monetary value so the fact that i can buy it for 15 or 20 quid is pretty good. but because of the climate its produced in (ie mass production of cds or records etc) the financial value of the music is restricted (in a completely meanignless and artificial way) to the market price of a cd or record. that says nothing about the value of the music to either the musician or the listener, its just a fairly random matter of fact. filesharing reduces the financial value of the music to almost nothing but it makes no difference to the value of the music at all. it means big changes to individuals involved in making music perhaps but if your talking about music surely thats a bit beside the point. it'll all work out lads, dont worry.

They don't value it as much. I don't know how many times I've read people on here complaining about the fact that people are talking through gigs all the time. That's one simple example of how people don't respect it as much anymore.
The fact that people are stealing music, small record shops are closing, big record shops are closing, labels of all sorts have closed and will close - means that people don't value it as much.
The fact that the 'album' is in danger of becoming irrelevent is a sign that people don't value it as much.

You talk about a 'market value' of music. Of course there has to be a financial value. If people are gonna spend time writing songs, rehearsing, recording and putting out records, never mind spending money of instruments, rehearsal rooms and studios - people on this thread are saying that their time is worth nothing. They should get paid €0.00 an hour.

 

[aoboa]

Its not really a serious possibility though. People love music, people will always review, write about it, tell their friends about.

It's a total possibility.
People forget about the 'label as filter' concept. How many of you have bought records just cos they were on a specific label? At the very least - how many of you have simply discovered a new band because you checked them out because they were on a certain label.

Now - take the labels out of the equation - if you had to trawl through myspace to find good music - how many people would bother?

And just because the profits are slumping now, doesn't mean they necessarily continue all the way to zero.

Why not? According to the majority of people on this thread - recorded music should have a value of zero. Why would anyone in their right mind continue to record if what they record has zero value?

 

[therealjohnny]

Oh, really?

These might be more up your street

 

[aoboa]

Further to this point of 'value' - I've lost count of how many times I've heard people say - 'I've got ??Gbit on music on my computer at home, haven't listened to half of it. Probably never will'.
Now it's one thing to download an album, think 'this is f**king amazing - people HAVE to hear this' and share it.
It's completely different to download stuff, never listen to it and share it anyway. Which is how the Torrent thing works and a huge number of Soulseek/etc users have thousands of albums to share which you can be damn sure, that the majority of, have never listened to and hence have NO VALUE to the person doing the sharing.

 

[lemonbravo]

Why not? According to the majority of people on this thread - recorded music should have a value of zero. Why would anyone in their right mind continue to record if what they record has zero value?

[SIZE=-1]exactly, picture your favourite band in the middle of working on an album after spending a couple thousand already on recording time or equipment etc and they get writers block or things aren't going well in the studio. The idea that once the album's finished it's going to be given away for free, to an unknown amount of people, who probably won't give any feedback, this is supposed to help inspire them to continue....?[/SIZE]

 

[MDR]

This debate has unfortunately been reduced to the zeroes and ones that depersonalise the debate in the first place. I was forced into arguing the legality of downloading because folk were suggesting that its fine by virtue of numbers doing it – I felt obliged to argue that it is ILLEGAL even though we all do it. I know that. I have no interest in prosecuting downloaders. That’s fucking ridiculous. They are no more criminals than I am when I jaywalk but the 50 stone man who walks in front of cars and just sits there in the middle of the road is also a jaywalker. Traffic flows when we cross the road – it has always flowed and we all assumed that it always would but I am no longer convinced – is there a collective digital conscience to put that fat cunt in jail and keep traffic flowing?

I also know that this might be the beginning of a revolution – not the revolution of greedy already pampered lazy middle class scabs that we are seeing now – but when this technology is available to folk that have never had access to underground music hitherto will there still be folk making interesting music for them to access? The majors will fall and nobody here will lament their passing but if the indies are no longer there to pick up the slack then what? Will anyone here convinced by their own generic rhetoric be willing to risk the cash that we do to make the art that we all take for granted? We're not heroes by any stretch but you'll miss us if we disappear.

I knew things were getting heavy when Vinnie changed fonts.

 

[MDR]

I floated an idea with Snakybus before, where I was saying that bands could release albums/songs the way artists do paintings. So picture this. You go into some medium sized white room and there are ten listening posts, each one with a different song from your new album; each song has its own uniquely designed packaging. If you like the song and are prepared to bid the highest price for it, you walk out with the master copy and its unique packaging; all rights to the work included - the artists doesn't even get to keep a copy themselves. One unique copy only. After that you have complete ownership of the work. You can listen to it at home and never play it for anyone else; you can put it on the internet for everyone to dowload; you can use it on an ad for the mitsubishi lancer; or whatever the hell you want. You own it. You paid for it.

The artists can still play the song live, but will of course have to pay a royalty to the owner (that is the rule at the moment by the way - you can't stop someone playing your song, but you're entitled to a royalty).

As for the general public - who cares. They weren't going to pay for it anyway.

Before i conclude i should say that i decided against this on two grounds:

- I didn't think anyone would want to buy one of my songs outright, and
- It's a shit idea.

 

[MDR]

PS: everyone is talking about artists and fans - I'd hate to see independent record shops go under too.

 

[snakybus]

I floated an idea with Snakybus before, where I was saying that bands could release albums/songs the way artists do paintings. So picture this. You go into some medium sized white room and there are ten listening posts, each one with a different song from your new album; each song has its own uniquely designed packaging. If you like the song and are prepared to bid the highest price for it, you walk out with the master copy and its unique packaging; all rights to the work included - the artists doesn't even get to keep a copy themselves. One unique copy only. After that you have complete ownership of the work. You can listen to it at home and never play it for anyone else; you can put it on the internet for everyone to dowload; you can use it on an ad for the mitsubishi lancer; or whatever the hell you want. You own it. You paid for it.

The artists can still play the song live, but will of course have to pay a royalty to the owner (that is the rule at the moment by the way - you can't stop someone playing your song, but you're entitled to a royalty).

As for the general public - who cares. They weren't going to pay for it anyway.

Before i conclude i should say that i decided against this on two grounds:

- I didn't think anyone would want to buy one of my songs outright, and
- It's a shit idea.

If I remember right, we were both a bit tanked. What was my response?

 

[MDR]

If I remember right, we were both a bit tanked. What was my response?

We weren't tanked. You were driving and when i finished making my point you rewound the tape on the stereo because I had been talking over one of your songs.

 

[theoootini]

music is ubik these days. people have it in their ears 24/7- of course that is going to devalue it...

 

[hugh]

PS: everyone is talking about artists and fans - I'd hate to see independent record shops go under too.

That's clearly happening all over the place ...

 

[snakybus]

We weren't tanked. You were driving and when i finished making my point you rewound the tape on the stereo because I had been talking over one of your songs.

Oh that's right. I'll buy one of your songs, Ro. Or we could do a song swap and call it evens.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

It's a total possibility.
People forget about the 'label as filter' concept. How many of you have bought records just cos they were on a specific label? At the very least - how many of you have simply discovered a new band because you checked them out because they were on a certain label.

valid point. Nowadays I instinctively buy anything released on Trunk or Finders Keepers because I trust in the taste of Jonny Trunk and Andy Votel + mates.

would have had label loyalty to others in the past, Warp, Skam, Rephlex etc.

 

[coast to coast]

It's a total possibility.
People forget about the 'label as filter' concept. How many of you have bought records just cos they were on a specific label? At the very least - how many of you have simply discovered a new band because you checked them out because they were on a certain label.

Now - take the labels out of the equation - if you had to trawl through myspace to find good music - how many people would bother?




Why not? According to the majority of people on this thread - recorded music should have a value of zero. Why would anyone in their right mind continue to record if what they record has zero value?

1. I've never bought a record cos of the label its on, ever.
2. You might not like trawling through myspace but its a really easy way of listening to loads of new music.
3. People will record music because they are in it for music, not for the retail value of their mp3s, of course its not a real possibility.

 

[hugh]

1. I've never bought a record cos of the label its on, ever.
2. You might not like trawling through myspace but its a really easy way of listening to loads of new music.

I dunno. You're listening to The White Stripes. Do you think you would ever have heard of them if it was not for the fact that their records were initially released on Sympathy For The Record Industry with all the marketing/cool by association/PR pushing that being on a label like that entails? Suppose they never had a record label and just released stuff themselves. Do you think you would have eventually stumbled across them by randomly clicking on band's myspace pages?

 

[coast to coast]

Further to this point of 'value' - I've lost count of how many times I've heard people say - 'I've got ??Gbit on music on my computer at home, haven't listened to half of it. Probably never will'.
Now it's one thing to download an album, think 'this is f**king amazing - people HAVE to hear this' and share it.
It's completely different to download stuff, never listen to it and share it anyway. Which is how the Torrent thing works and a huge number of Soulseek/etc users have thousands of albums to share which you can be damn sure, that the majority of, have never listened to and hence have NO VALUE to the person doing the sharing.

You also might argue that if the person isn't listening to the music they aren't really violating any intellectual property rights.

 

[ratmonkey]

You also might argue that if the person isn't listening to the music they aren't really violating any intellectual property rights.

They are if they're making it available to others.

 

[timbot]

I agree with Ootini that music is everywhere and that devalues it somewhat. Gone are the days of scrimping to buy a new CD, €40 a month to an ISP and all the music you want.
The main problem with the music industry is failing to meet a changing market. They must be one of the few big businesses that has ignored the web and the impact it has had on all industry.
I was kind of hoping for a return to the days where a CD on a particular label meant something and you would buy on sight. Like Planet Mu now maybe. With all this music available record labels could do well by sifting through it all and picking out the highlights.

 

[aoboa]

2. You might not like trawling through myspace but its a really easy way of listening to loads of new music.
3. People will record music because they are in it for music, not for the retail value of their mp3s, of course its not a real possibility.

I'm sorry but that's rubbish.
You're the first person I've ever heard say that trawling through myspace makes finding new music really easy.

I record music cos I have a 9-5 job. If I was depending on it for a living I'd have starved to death long ago. I do it cos I love music and I like it when other people enjoy my music.
Like I said earlier in the thread releasing music for free is unsatisfying to the point of it negatively affecting your attitude to your own music.
There is no reason to do it.
You get no feedback.
You have no physical artifact that marks what you've done as a body of work.
A lot of bands will record for the simple reason that they'd like to put out a cd or record to catalogue a period of creativity or whatever.
If this all goes to random mp3s floating around in the ether without a context - I personally won't record another album ever again cos there'll be no point and I imagine a lot of bands will feel the same.