Queen Kong / Ladyfest Berlin Hassle (1 Viewer)

[pelviscostello]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Cormcolash,
I think you’re missing the point of why Magical Girl put on gigs like this one. Their gigs are to celebrate women in music/art. You seem to think it’s to put down men?

I think it is very important to put on gigs under the guise of feminism and I praise Siobhan for doing this. How else do you fight against inequality? Should women hang around waiting for equality to just come their way? Unfortunately things don’t happen to you if you just hang around waiting. It's the same with anything you want to fight against.

Yes, feminism should be, as you say, “about equality, the fact that both sexes should be viewed as equally capable in every way to the point that people shouldn't even have to distinguish between sexes because it doesn't make a difference.” but unfortunately this doesn’t happen in the real world…*insert differences in salary scales, treatment of women in 3rd world countries, women trying to get back into the workplace after raising a family, treatment of female babies in places like China and India* - I could go on and on but you get my point I hope.

If you can, why not go along to the gig and I’m sure you’ll realise the last thing it’s about is putting men down in any way. In fact, alot of the bands have guys in them and if they felt they were being put down, I'm sure they wouldn't agree to play.

I am going to celebrate white people and all of their music and art. /sarcasm

We are not in a third world country. We are in Ireland were salaries earned by women are very much on par with those earned by men.

I wonder if any of the profits derived by these "you're Magical Girl" gigs goes to oppressed women in third world countries?

 

[georgestapleton]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

We are in Ireland were salaries earned by women are very much on par with those earned by men.

Err thats not true. Okay for similar work men are paid pretty much the same as women. But women tend to have lower paid jobs, more insecure work, work part time, and work in casualised precarious jobs. And even in jobs despite it being illegal for men and women to be paid differently for the same work, research has found that that law has not been abided by universally.

 

[pelviscostello]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Err thats not true. Okay for similar work men are paid pretty much the same as women. But women tend to have lower paid jobs, more insecure work, work part time, and work in casualised precarious jobs. And even in jobs despite it being illegal for men and women to be paid differently for the same work, research has found that that law has not been abided by universally.

Actually, Accountancy Ireland did a survey in the first half this year and it confirmed that Women, in this country, earn the same pay as men for the same job.

However, they did state that women are not in as many senior positions as men and this is explained by the fact th they that they take more parental leave and that many less women stay in the workforce after giving birth.

So what are feminists on this board doing for women in Ireland? What wide-scale oppression are they fighting in this country? What are they doing for women who are truly oppressed (i.e. genital mutilation in Africa)?

Nothing.

 

[THRILLHO]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

However, the idea of "celebrating women and being female" does not hold with that. By setting gigs/whatever up in this manner, what you are doing in my view in essence is putting women above men in order of importance.

Nonsense.

Right now in Rome, there's a film festival about "Architecture in Cinema". Are the organisers of that film festival, in essence, saying that films about buildings are better than all other movies?

 

[Cormcolash]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

First off just to clear it up, I must state again that at no point did I accuse Magical Girl of being sexist. In fact my original post implied that they were not partaking in that sort of behaviour, this is quite easy to see if you read it. In fact I didn't even say Magical Girl was doing anything bad in any way. My original post was much more aimed at disagreeing with what went on in Berlin.
The blunt fact is, Dave was told to put his top back on or wear a bra. In fact he was more than told, he was practically ordered and indeed threatened with having the gig stopped if he didn't.
Amy, however, who I am told was doing something similar to Dave, was not considered a problem in any way, and she was allowed to do as she pleased.
That is more than stupidity. It is a blatant case of sexism at what is supposedly and anti-sexism event, and I for one cannot see how it can be viewed as anything else.
If anyone can explain to me in no uncertain terms how Dave taking his top off can make a total stranger feel uncomfortable to the point of a near-pathological reaction against it, and explain it without ascribing the reaction against it to an individual's own interpretation and reaction to society around them, and then explain to me why this reaction was upheld by a majority of people who disagreed with it, then I might be willing to say that it's not sexism. I'll also be quite impressed with the person who explained it, probably.

Pelvis on the other hand gets stuck right in there with a dose of reality. Blunt but effective.
We could basically have a mad huge discussion about what feminism means in modern society and how it can be altered to be more effective, but what would be the point? Everyone will only end up agreeing with their own opinions anyway. Most of the time people argue, they are never going to get the other person to agree with them, and therefore the arguing is utterly pointless.

As for Pelvis, I think what they are getting at is the fact that despite various claims made by other people on the thread, feminism does in fact have no positive effect on the lives of people in third world countries. Putting a feminist gig on in Dublin, amazingly enough, is not going to affect how female children are treated in China.
I didn't want to drag the discussion this direction, and I'm sure a lot of people here are already well aware of the idea, but Pelvis has already started it, so here are some facts:

The world is fucked. It is not completely fucked for men, or completely fucked for women. It is completely fucked for everyone. People in the Western World enjoy an unprecedented standard of living compared to the majority of the population of the Earth, and are doing so by exploiting that population.
Another fact: if you live to a decent standard of living in the Western World, you are part of that process of exploitation. You can fight it, disagree with it, oppose it from the inside, but the sooner you realize you are part of it and accept that, the better.
And one more: Lots of men are fucking dicks. And so are lots of women. Being a dick is not sex-exclusive (bit of a pun there eh?). As a point, it is not just men who ruin gigs for people. Women ruin gigs for people too. People who ruin gigs for other people are just being dicks when they do that, whether they are male or female.
On a mass basis, we are all fucking screwed. It's easy for me to say all this sitting behind a computer in Ireland, but at least I'm aware of reality.

Someone earlier accused my idea of feminism as being very idealist. That is completely true. It is extremely idealist. However, to me it is also much more realistic than the view being put across that extreme feminism should be encouraged because females are being exploited.
What counts is not the fact that all over the world women are being exploited. Guess what, all over the world men and children are being exploited too. Like I say, the world is fucked, not just for men or women, but for everyone.
What counts is that I view men and women as equals. I feel that women around the world may be getting exploited more than men, but it's not the balance that should be addressed, it's the exploitation. For that reason, I feel that feminism shouldn't even exist. Someone should have come up with fucking peopleism or something instead. However, feminism does exist, and I can live with that, as long as people aren't trying to use it as a weapon of discrimination.
For some people, it's a way to try and change the world around them for the better, and maybe make a difference to the world as a whole. Of course I'm far too much of a cynic to believe that will happen, but there's nothing wrong with trying. But there's always some people who want to take things too far. I think everyone should be aware of that.
So I choose to interpret feminism as the idea that men and women should be equal. And I choose to believe that this idea cannot be promoted by actions which oppose that idea. I'll live in my fucking bubble, and I'm okay with that, even if it does mean enduring constant depression which is probably at least partly due to extreme cynicism.
That is the reality. It's not an ideal, it's part of my individual view of the world. Therefore, I say if someone else is being sexist because of their individual views, they can hardly call themselves a feminist.
I'd rather be an unhappy cynic than an unaware optimist.

Pelviscostello already said it:
"The "feminists" who unplugged Queen Kong, are about as feminist as George W. Bush is a Christian"

Something ironic: I don't even agree with all of Pelvis's post. There's a couple of bits I'm not really for. But I think the post as a whole hits a pretty important spot nonetheless.
Another irony: I was thinking of sticking on some sort of "man-fest" as a comedy idea too, before Pelvis even mentioned it. After all, humour is one of the best tools of subversion.

Finally, I'm sure a lot of people here probably won't like anything I've just posted. I don't give a shit. As far as I'm concerned, this is reality, and everyone is going to have to get used to it, probably within the next 50 years or so. And I'll say it again, nobody who argues vehemently about something really wants to listen to what the other person is saying anyway. I'm like to not include myself in that, but I'm only human.

 

[Cormcolash]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Nonsense.

Right now in Rome, there's a film festival about "Architecture in Cinema". Are the organisers of that film festival, in essence, saying that films about buildings are better than all other movies?

Yes. Haha only messing.
I was going to address that part of my post before, but then couldn't be arsed. Guess I will now though.

"celebrating women and being female"

Celebrating women = Sure. Cool, no problem. I don't really see why there should be a need to celebrate women, but go right ahead.

Celebrating women and being female = Exclusive. Approx. 50% of the population can't "be female" and therefore can't really celebrate it.
In Northern Ireland, "50%" (more like 2% if you ask me) of the population like to celebrate having a different religion to everyone else every Summer, and everyone outside that percentage thinks they're fucking stupid.
I know it's not the same thing, but the point is that I don't see why being different should be something to celebrate. Everyone is different, but everyone is still equal. So what's to celebrate?
As far as I'm concerned everyone should be treated as an individual, not part of a group, and I don't understand why people would want to actively segregate themselves into groups to the extent that it actually does make a difference to how they live. And if anyone tries to enforce segregation upon them, then that is totally wrong too.
I'm sure no-one will actually understand what it is I'm trying to say now, fuck it.


EDIT:

I might use some of this shit in a zine sometime, but I'll probably be too busy to ever actually put a zine together.

Also, I thought of a better answer for: "Are the organisers of that film festival, in essence, saying that films about buildings are better than all other movies?"

 

[Cormcolash]

Re: Queen Kong Berlin Hassle.

Corm you know that feminazi is a term coined by rush limbaugh.

Other things he's said are

• Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.

• We're not sexists, we're chauvinists -- we're male chauvinist pigs, and we're happy to be because we think that's what men were destined to be. We think that's what women want. [15 April 2004]

• Sexual harrasment at this work station will not be reported. However, it will be graded!!!.

Its a really dodgy right wing politically loaded term that marks out the user as a reactionary bigot. If you aren't a reactionary bigot who think the above quotes hit the nail on the head, don't use it.

Sorry, I promise never to try and be funny ever again!

 

[Cormcolash]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Everyone is different, but everyone is still equal. So what's to celebrate?
As far as I'm concerned everyone should be treated as an individual, not part of a group, and I don't understand why people would want to actively segregate themselves into groups to the extent that it actually does make a difference to how they live. And if anyone tries to enforce segregation upon them, then that is totally wrong too.
I'm sure no-one will actually understand what it is I'm trying to say now, fuck it.

Christ I talk some shite. I don't think any of that came out the way I wanted it to, but as stated above: fuck it.

 

[pelviscostello]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

I find allot of people in our society, who say that they as a group are being discriminated against, do in fact feel that they as a person are being discriminated against.

They think to themselves "Why don't I have that car? Why don't I make as much as John? Why, I am being discriminated against"

The reality is they don't have that car because they can't afford it and they can afford it because they're on the dole.The reality is "John" is 15 years older and therefore more experienced and deserves more money.

Most of these supposedly "feminist" women I have met are on the dole (shall I name names?). They *cough* "can't find a job" in the best economy we've ever had. They are lazy and therefore instead of looking at themselves to change a problem blame it on sexism, capitalism, et. al.

Not all are on the dole some are perpetually "students" until they turn 30.

Some work but work with the bare amount of ambition it takes to survive. I worked in Human Resources for the last two years (my Boss was a woman) I considered it a miracle if I found an Irish person actually willing to work hard.

These people, these oppressed masses, expect others to pay for their unproductive bohemian lifestyles.

The only exception I find to this is immigrants. They are prejudiced against and deserve benefit concerts. However, sadly, in this example they do not count because they are excluded from this society by the majority of Irish people.

 

[pelviscostello]

Re: Queen Kong Berlin Hassle.

Dave,

My view on this can be seen here...

http://www.thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=53887&page=3

 

[pelviscostello]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

I am an Androist.

I want equal rights for men. I am tired of being oppressed by Women.

Manifesto coming soon...

(MANifesto ha ha ha)

 

[pelviscostello]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

or "Womyn" as the case may be.

 

[cmndr mind fuck]

Re: Queen Kong Berlin Hassle.

That reminds me, whens that 7" coming out? any chance of another QtotheK, mines scratched to shit.

 

[lympog]

Re: Queen Kong Berlin Hassle.

Corm you know that feminazi is a term coined by rush limbaugh.

Other things he's said are

• Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.

• We're not sexists, we're chauvinists -- we're male chauvinist pigs, and we're happy to be because we think that's what men were destined to be. We think that's what women want. [15 April 2004]

• Sexual harrasment at this work station will not be reported. However, it will be graded!!!.

Its a really dodgy right wing politically loaded term that marks out the user as a reactionary bigot. If you aren't a reactionary bigot who think the above quotes hit the nail on the head, don't use it.

you've never had a sense of humour, have you - unless, of course, this is a seriously twisted version of irony that's gone over everyone's head

- leigh

 

[MEATBEE]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Not having been at the Queen Kong gig, I can only go off what I've been told, but it seems pretty clear that something completely innocuous was blown way out of proportion by the organizers, without much of a justification.

I totally endorse any group's collaboration based on like-mindedness or similar backgrounds. This sense of entitlement that such groups develop when they become 'exclusive', however, is a problem. Any diversity of opinion is flattened, to the point where the group's ideas are only reinforced from the inside - and so completely unable to account for outside opinions.

Even if Dave meant to be macho or whatever, which he clearly didn't, this action doesn't threaten anything; it's just some guy with his shirt off. Ladyfest and its ideological foundations are not in danger of negation because something slipped through the veneer that could be construed as masculine posturing. To act as such just smacks of either insecurity in one's position, or frightening extremism. Simply, you should be able to handle stuff like that pretty easily without freaking out. No one has a right to live free of differing opinions.

Now, of course, there should be space for women in performance. But a "women-only" attitude is destructive. It doesn't meet anyone else on good faith, and it builds barriers, exactly the same as a "gentleman's club" or a "no gays" Boy Scout organization or a "whites only" prom does. It was the event organizers, not Dave, who decided to become aggressive, during the band's set, which in itself was just rude. Putting the whole discussion aside, that's really the problem: a band was invited out by some organizers, then interrupted and antagonized by those same organizers for something that, in hindsight, seems rather petty. Really, it seems just to be a case of pushing someone, then calling foul when that someone pushes back.

 

[lympog]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

so what's this i hear about a gig being put on?

- leigh

 

[pete]

i've moved a load of posts to here from the Magical Girl thread

carry on

 

[georgestapleton]

Re: Queen Kong Berlin Hassle.

you've never had a sense of humour, have you

Yeah feminazi. Its hilarious. It works on so many levels you know.

 

[taubstumm]

this is going to be one of those threads that generates far more heat than light, isn't it?

one curious little factoid, though: as far as i can see, the 'pelviscostello' account has been registered purely in order to post rubbish about this topic. 7 posts so far, all on this thread - somebody's got a real chip on their shoulder.

it'd be easier to take his inane ramblings a little more seriously if he had the courage of his convictions and wasn't hiding behind a convenient internet disguise. at least cormcolash is posting as himself.

apart from that, carry on.

 

[georgestapleton]

Re: Magical Girl Gig Sat 18th Aug - Das Wanderlust+Estel+Sweet Jane

Actually, Accountancy Ireland did a survey in the first half this year and it confirmed that Women, in this country, earn the same pay as men for the same job.

I've seen other studies that state the opposite. I think its pretty much universally excepted by those who work in labour economics or any other field that studies pay differentials between men and women that a small but non-negligible contributing factor to the pay gap between men and women is discrimination. I'm not saying that its a big deal and if you read my first post it was saying exactly that its not a big deal. Prejudice is not the core problem of sexism, its structural inequality.

However, they did state that women are not in as many senior positions as men and this is explained by the fact th they that they take more parental leave and that many less women stay in the workforce after giving birth.

Yeah I mean what the fuck are women thinking going having babies. I mean can they not just get their wives to do that carrying the child for nine months nursing and raising it. Wait no, they can't.

Didn't you say:

Men and women have genetically hardwired roles in society and no amount of lack of shaving is going to change that.

You can see those behaviors in action on daily basis, it's called procreation.

So lets get this straight: 'men and women are different because of their different roles in procreation.' Okay so far so good. 'And women are treated unequally in out society primarily because of their role in procreation.' Okay I'll go along with that. 'And this shows that women and men are equal in our society'. Hang on that doesn't make sense.

So what are feminists on this board doing for women in Ireland? What wide-scale oppression are they fighting in this country?

Well...
This saturday:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/83506

In the past year:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/83307
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/83800
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82330
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81395
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82374

What are they doing for women who are truly oppressed (i.e. genital mutilation in Africa)?

Feminists in RAR, the IFPA and various other orgs have been pushing this:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74738
http://www.struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2004/83/fgm.html
http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=93
http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=73

The words 'Now Shut the Fuck Up' spring to mind.