Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[pete]

Pete,where do you find all this intensely spooky shite?

First Pentagrams across Dublin,now this.Shit.

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[broken arm]

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It is also freely available and publicly accessible on the ISS website

http://www.iss.europa.eu/index.php?id=18&no_cache=1&tx_ttnewsIt is important to remember that the book is a strategic interpretation of what the security scenarios of the future may look like and not a statement of policy.

the economist review of the book listed on the ISS site is interesting too..
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2009/07/globalisers_v_localisers_a_gri.cfm

I have my qualms about the table, which Dr Ries himself says is greatly simplified. I am not sure I wholly buy into the idea that transnational corporations enjoy a unique, autonomous place at the top of the table: some of the biggest companies in 2020 will surely include state-controlled outfits from places like China. And as an ex-China hand I am also not certain that China can confidently be counted a globaliser with no Alienated characteristics. You could quibble and ask where Iran sits in this table (presumably an AMS?).


But I am intrigued, if depressed, by the thought-provoking predictions that follow. According to Dr Ries, by 2020 we can expect EU foreign and security policy to need to perform several tasks. These include offering crisis resolution and peace support assistance to the SMS, and support for state building in PMS. Dr Ries is clearly pretty gloomy about Russia, because under the AMS rubric, he says the EU should be preparing “a capability to support hard power politics, both for Clausewitzian influence and possible direct military confrontation.”

 

[pete]

It is also freely available and publicly accessible on the ISS website

The only difference is Wikileaks have a cut & paste friendly version. Why would you protect a policy / discussion document like that? I'm not attributing any sinister motive here, just think it's stupid.

Anyway, to quote The Economist

IT IS NOT terribly well-known, but since 2002 the European Union has had its own foreign policy think-tank, the European Union Institute for Security Studies,

I didn't know about it (that's not saying much, I know), but it's interesting to see how many times the word 'Lisbon' appears in the document. I haven't actually read all 175 pages, so I don't know what this means for people who wish to play up / play down the military aspects of the Lisbon Treaty.

 

[broken arm]

The only difference is Wikileaks have a cut & paste friendly version. Why would you protect a policy / discussion document like that? I'm not attributing any sinister motive here, just think it's stupid.

absolutely. I know you're not suggesting anything sinister at all. I just thought i'd stress that.

 

[IFF]

i like to pay for my beer and sex.

sure according to Cóir, prostitution will be legalised if we approve the Lisbon Treaty no more risking prison for sex

another reason to vote yes

.
I heard on Pat Kenny that COIR is in fact a pseudoname of Youth Defence,fucking religous zealots and misogynists.

one thing though about their posters this time around, their name is visible on them instead of being in a 1 font

 

[broken arm]

IFF, what is your take on the general defence discussion under Lisbon?

you're fairly into the middle east and the military and whatnot.

 

[Wobbler]

What's Cóir's angle, by the way? I know most people assume it's an anti-abortion thing, but is it really? I mean, the church seem to be advocating a yes vote and they're not mad on abortion either. I know they're a far right Christian group, but they're not stupid so surely they realize that the treaty has fuck all to do with abortion?

 

[Space]

ISn't their problem that God isn't mentioned in the treaty?

 

[IFF]

IFF, what is your take on the general defence discussion under Lisbon?

you're fairly into the middle east and the military and whatnot.

i'm not concerned with the defense elements of the lisbon treaty. we're already part of the European Rapid Reaction Force for peace keeping innititives.

we still have the triple lock mechanism for peace keeping missions and that doesn't change.

and i don't think the EU will be attacking nations anytime soon to bring democracy there unless what one correspondant to the irish times letter page wrote. (fintan o'toole and tony kinsella said it best in their book "post washington" that the methods applied by the european union have been very boring but very successful at nation building)

it should be noted that roger cole of pana made the point that intel support the lisbon treaty because of supplying software to it but the same point was made by the yes crowd last time out about ganley and libertas.

 

[broken arm]

What's Cóir's angle, by the way? I know most people assume it's an anti-abortion thing, but is it really? I mean, the church seem to be advocating a yes vote and they're not mad on abortion either. I know they're a far right Christian group, but they're not stupid so surely they realize that the treaty has fuck all to do with abortion?

It would seem that they are a mixture of conservative, nationalist, anti-gay, anti-immigration eurosceptics.

It's not unusual for lobby groups to campaign on a number of issues to force movement on their central ideology.


such as during the divorce referendum

The opposition to constitutional change was fuelled by anti-divorce campaigns which used fear tactics related to money, children, property and inheritance to argue that divorce would tear apart the fabric of Irish society. The campaigns also claimed that divorce would open the floodgates to marriage breakdown. The availability of divorce in Ireland since 1997 has not, however, borne out the dire predictions of the anti-divorce campaigners.

http://lawfam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/202

 

[broken arm]

it should be noted that roger cole of pana made the point that intel support the lisbon treaty because of supplying software to it but the same point was made by the yes crowd last time out about ganley and libertas.

yea, in the UK the tories/UKIP etc think the EU (and the Lisbon treaty) is some socialist plot to overthrow the sovereignty of the crown and make every brit into a gay, churchburning boss-killer while the socialists and left think it's some neo-liberal plot to smash society, exploit workers and protect the rich.

 

[Wobbler]

It would seem that they are a mixture of conservative, nationalist, anti-gay, anti-immigration eurosceptics.

It's not unusual for lobby groups to campaign on a number of issues to force movement on their central ideology.


such as during the divorce referendum



http://lawfam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/202

Cheers. Still seems strange.

 

[pete]

The political reality, according to Reinfeldt, is that no member state wants to lose its commissioner even if Lisbon cannot enter into force and the EU must continue with the Nice treaty. The “26 plus one” plan is likely to fly in the event of a no vote as many states would agree to swap their right to a low profile post in the EU executive, such as commissioner for multilingualism, to obtain the high profile foreign affairs job.

Another interesting comment from the Swedish prime minister was that the political deal agreed last December on the size of the commission to allow all member states to retain a commissioner may not last forever. “We might in the future get back to this discussion. What if we keep on enlarging?” admitted Mr Reinfeldt, who warned that the question of the efficiency of the commission will re-emerge when there are 30 states or more in the EU.

Reinfeldt is right on both counts, of course. But his Swedish frankness may not go down well with the Government, who are running their Lisbon campaign on a theme of “vote yes to keep your commissioner”. Revealing four weeks before polling that there is likely no immediate threat to an Irish commissioner, even if we vote no to Lisbon, is the type of honest political assessment so rarely displayed during referendum campaigns in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/stateoftheunion/2009/09/06/keeping-our-commissioner-without-lisbon/

 

[Cormcolash]

If I were to vote, I would vote yes, because the no arguments are retarded for the most part.
The only argument the no camp has that actually makes sense is the one about the fact we've already had a vote and people already said no.
Of course, I'd never vote in this shit anyway, as either way you get a bunch of monkeys being in charge of everything. Voting Yes just gives you slightly less corrupt monkeys.

 

[Kermit McDermott]

Corm you should vote.

I voted no last time, and I'm voting no this time, no matter what those spoofing, blagger politicians say. Although I think the yes crowd will win this time because of the state of the economy. The Yes side are scaring people by saying a no vote will mean we will be frozen out economically by the bog wigs in Europe for not doing what they want.

 

[Milker]

no chance of a Thumped Poll on Lisbon Deux?

 

[pete]

done

 

[Gambra]

I've gotten to the stage where I just don't care whether it gets passed or not. Either way it doesn't give back any powers to the people and the same guys will be in charge at the top. It has a few good points and it has a few bad points, I don't agree with the For side and I don't agree with the Against side, I would be for a unified borderless Europe just not under the control of an only semi-elected and totally unaccountable group of politicians (when was the last time you heard of an Irish MEP resigning or being recalled?). Ugh.

 

[Corey]

Reverse Anal Cowgirl.

 

[Milker]

Fuck it..gave a No..still too many unknowns. Any argument 'in favour' that i agree w like freeing up the environmental initiatives are extremely tempting but these would still be implementable at another point w/out passing thru a rejected EU-Constitution-derived treaty.

I have not been persuaded that the treaty is in the best interests of society.

I have been persuaded that the treaty will not have ireland involved in a war-orgy or obliged to start providing abortions(mores the pity) and nearly persuaded that Ireland will be crippled by bad sentiment and not be asked to come out and play kick-the-can anymore.
So well done the Dáil Yes-ers.