Jesus H why oh why??? (1 Viewer)

[Pantone247]

Unfortunately 90%(at a guess) of the country want their kids to have a religious education. Someday they'll get it sorted.

I would seriously raise my eye-brows at 90%, don't think that's anywhere near the truth

I went to a religious secondary school, runs by Nuns it was, and it was mostly grand, but occasionaly it was a total pain in the hole and fustrating and unfair and stupid (as most things are too a teen!) But I was lucky in so far as my parents would always say "yeah Sr Anne is pretty mental" take my side on arguments "yeah we don't think Queen are satanic either", never freaked out, "we don't think you should bury your Dungeons and Dragons books like your R.E. teacher said" or simply explain that sometimes nutty people are running the show and you just have to tell with it.

In fact that may be the only thing that school thought me

Anyhow at the end of the day it would be nice to send a kid to a school with a moral ethos you agree with. But if he does end up going down the road to the local Saint Aloisius or whatever I'm sure he'll be clued in enough to sort the bullshit and you seem smart enough and concerned enough to keep him on the straight and narrow.

 

[Dromed]

Some really interesting points here (paper is a bit dated but i don't think much has changed in the meantime to be honest)

http://educatetogether.com/reference_articles/Ref_Art_003.html

Paper delivered by Professor Áine Hyland, Professor of Education, University College, Cork, Ireland, at a Conference Education and Religion organised by C.R.E.L.A. at the University of Nice. 21-22 June 1996:

Number and Type of Primary Schools 1992/3
Categories

Number of Schools ​

Roman Catholic

2,988 ​

Church of Ireland (Anglican)

190 ​

Presbyterian

18 ​

Methodist

1 ​

Jewish

1 ​

Muslim

1 ​

Multi-denominational

10 ​

TOTAL

3,209 ​

The 1937 Constitution, in particular, enshrined the primary role of parents in the education of their children. Article 42 reads as follows :

The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide according to their means for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

European Convention on Human Rights states (Article 2):

No person shall be denied the right to education. In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.

Some other reading:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0524/schools.html

http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/socialist026jul07/5.html
​

 

[egg_]

I know what you mean Egg, but i can't do that. It's what has allowed the fuckin country end up like this ...

Hmm I dunno if you're right (or exactly what you mean)

If you're talking about religion, it's popular in the countryside because it's part of everyday people's everyday lives, same as the weather, Fianna Fail and the GAA. I've mellowed a lot on religion since I moved to the country and started to understand culshies better - still an atheist myself, obviously, but I've come to see that people's relationship with religion is far more complex than I had previously thought. The church isn't an evil empire (or, rather, isn't just an evil empire)

(And, one way or another, humans are social animals and mostly do what they're told by other humans higher up in whatever social structure they subscribe to. It's not an Irish thing, I don't think)

 

[nlgbbbblth]

It seems increasingly popular to put down a child's name for a secondary school while he/she is still a baby.

Waiting lists must be massive.

My son is down for the Church of Ireland primary school - no problem there as he was baptised in that faith. Secondary we've no idea. Want him to go local so it'll probably have to be 'catholic ethos'.

 

[Anthony]

There are tentative plans for Educate Together to get a secondary school going in meath, currently there are no non-fee paying non-denominational secondary schools in the county.

Sort of broke my heart at the graduation of the 6th class in my sons ET school recently. The principal said goodbye to them all individually and wished them luck in (insert mostly catholic traditional) big school.

They're in for a big shock.

 

[Dromed]

Hmm I dunno if you're right (or exactly what you mean)

If you're talking about religion, it's popular in the countryside because it's part of everyday people's everyday lives, same as the weather, Fianna Fail and the GAA. I've mellowed a lot on religion since I moved to the country and started to understand culshies better - still an atheist myself, obviously, but I've come to see that people's relationship with religion is far more complex than I had previously thought. The church isn't an evil empire (or, rather, isn't just an evil empire)

(And, one way or another, humans are social animals and mostly do what they're told by other humans higher up in whatever social structure they subscribe to. It's not an Irish thing, I don't think)

I took it that you were saying just go along with the easy option of a local Catholic school, don't try to change anything cos there's no point..which is the Irish way. I just have a problem with giving up like that. Sometimes you have to put your foot down and at least try to change things. I agree with you that religion is not just an evil empire - it gives lots of people massive comfort and brings communities together - I have no problem with religion in itself as i said before. However the strangle hold the catholic church has on this country is not healthy. Through money and thus political power it has basically managed to control the decisions of our everyday lives whether we like it or not and that's wrong.

 

[KokaneeCowgirl]

I suppose like someone else suggested, you could always send him to the catholic school and just make sure he knows that he won't go to hell just because he's not catholic. Hell, most Irish people today went to a catholic school and a good majority of them have ended up with a certain amount of mistrust/resentment/disgust towards the church so he obviously won't be brainwashed. Also, he's probably smart enough to take it all with a grain of salt. You're right, he shouldn't have to go to a catholic school, but bar the religion issue, would he get a good education?

 

[hugh]

Great. I'd just about finished freaking out about primary schools and now this thread has me freaking out about secondary schools now too.

 

[Dromed]

Great. I'd just about finished freaking out about primary schools and now this thread has me freaking out about secondary schools now too.

***Sorry!*****

 

[Pantone247]

Swiss boarding school anyone?

 

[egg_]

I took it that you were saying just go along with the easy option of a local Catholic school, don't try to change anything cos there's no point..which is the Irish way.

That's not really what I meant - the Irish way is more "pretend to be good and do what you feel like doing". It's kinda of Gandhi-an, thought that's giving us more credit than we deserve

Oh BTW I sympathise with your dilemma - I'd like to bring Isabelle up so the catholic church is as relevant to her as Hinduism or as Santa Claus or Little Red Riding Hood

 

[Pantone247]

That's not really what I meant - the Irish way is more "pretend to be good and do what you feel like doing". It's kinda of Gandhi-an, thought that's giving us more credit than we deserve

that may well be for your average joe in the street, but the abuse of responsibilty from the cleregy and nuns (are nuns cleregy?), especially when put in postions of power like schools, is shocking. Is not exclusive or inherent to roman chatolicism, obviously, but I still get annoyed when I think of some of the bitter evil little old women who bullied us around the secondary school I went. I totally belive that many of these women were drive completely by hate and spite. No exageration.

 

[Dromed]

That's not really what I meant - the Irish way is more "pretend to be good and do what you feel like doing". It's kinda of Gandhi-an, thought that's giving us more credit than we deserve

Oh BTW I sympathise with your dilemma - I'd like to bring Isabelle up so the catholic church is as relevant to her as Hinduism or as Santa Claus or Little Red Riding Hood

Egg I don't think Gandhi ever said 'pretend to be good but do what you feel like doing'!!! Is that not the opposite of his philosophy?! It sounds more Machiavellian...the ends justifies the means. It would be really easy for me to set aside my own feelings on this to ensure he gets a 'proper' education, if you can call it that. But then I'm expecting a child to know the difference. How do you explain that kind of hypocriscy to a child?

The philosophy of the school and it's day-to-day life is far more important as I see that being the single most influential thing on my son. I'd like that environment to reflect real life in so far as possible..i.e co-ed, no uniform and open to all faiths, colours, creeds and socio-economic backgrounds and all the shit that goes with that. That's real learning and far more meaningful. I actually don't fucking care if he ends up going to college or not once he's a happy, confident individual capable of thinking for himself and being able to stand up for himself.

I just feel pretty ripped off that i have fuck all options for him and pretty disgusted that it has to be such a big deal.

 

[RSJ]

Irish motto: "Era sure it's grand".

 

[wild_cat]

Seeing as I have just finished secondary school, I should have a good view on things.

I went to a Catholic convent school, we had two nun teachers. Religion was thought as an exam subject, we learned about all different kinds of religions. Never once heard that I was going to "burn in hell" because I was an atheist. Never had religion pushed on me either. Religion in 5th and 6th year was watching DVD's like the note book or mickey and me. Either that or the teacher used to let me talk to the class on the reasons why not to eat from KFC etc. (she really didnt give a shit but was head of the RE department). You'd hear storys for years ago about girls getting suspended because they were pro-choice during abortion debates in the oldschool religion classes, they dont teach from religion books anymore for 5th and 6th years. I had to laugh though cause there was two chaos punks on the cover of the books.


Only time I ever went up for communion was at the graduation mass where I had designed the cover for the massbooklet so I was up right at the front with the nuns from the convent and they had thanked me during the mass. So I thought it would be fucked up if i didnt go up for communion.

I did have religion pushed on me once though, coming out of my last leaving cert exam I met Sister Elisabeth and she made me bless myself with her rossary beads and promise to mass for the rest of my life, she then told me I was a lovely girl. That was all....

 

[egg_]

Egg I don't think Gandhi ever said 'pretend to be good but do what you feel like doing'!!! Is that not the opposite of his philosophy?!

Well, it's a kind of passive resistance, isn't it? By "being good" I don't mean actually being good, more like obeying social conventions - if you don't like em then you disobey em.

Ah I know, I'm stretching things a bit ...

I'd like that environment to reflect real life in so far as possible..i.e co-ed, no uniform and open to all faiths, colours, creeds and socio-economic backgrounds and all the shit that goes with that.

Well that'd be great, but it hardly reflects real life now does it?

 

[KokaneeCowgirl]

Well that'd be great, but it hardly reflects real life now does it?

Egg has a point. My high school education was in a non-denominational, co-ed school and we didn't have to wear uniforms. I think whereever schools are, there's going to be BS nomatter what. Ie, in non-uniform wearing schools, the kids from poorer backgrounds get picked on because it's more obvious that their parents can't afford expensive brand name clothing.

 

[billygannon]

Seeing as I have just finished secondary school, I should have a good view on things.

I went to a Catholic convent school, we had two nun teachers. Religion was thought as an exam subject, we learned about all different kinds of religions. Never once heard that I was going to "burn in hell" because I was an atheist. Never had religion pushed on me either. Religion in 5th and 6th year was watching DVD's like the note book or mickey and me. Either that or the teacher used to let me talk to the class on the reasons why not to eat from KFC etc. (she really didnt give a shit but was head of the RE department). You'd hear storys for years ago about girls getting suspended because they were pro-choice during abortion debates in the oldschool religion classes, they dont teach from religion books anymore for 5th and 6th years. I had to laugh though cause there was two chaos punks on the cover of the books.


Only time I ever went up for communion was at the graduation mass where I had designed the cover for the massbooklet so I was up right at the front with the nuns from the convent and they had thanked me during the mass. So I thought it would be fucked up if i didnt go up for communion.

I did have religion pushed on me once though, coming out of my last leaving cert exam I met Sister Elisabeth and she made me bless myself with her rossary beads and promise to mass for the rest of my life, she then told me I was a lovely girl. That was all....

Are you still going to Mass?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

Swiss boarding school anyone?

Chalet School?

good books anyway

 

[Dromed]

Egg has a point. My high school education was in a non-denominational, co-ed school and we didn't have to wear uniforms. I think whereever schools are, there's going to be BS nomatter what. Ie, in non-uniform wearing schools, the kids from poorer backgrounds get picked on because it's more obvious that their parents can't afford expensive brand name clothing.

I know school is never really going to reflect real life to an exact degree but it's closer to it in a school where there's a the mix of backgrounds and some sense of individuality. I really hate seeing kids all identical in their uniforms. I understand your point that some kids/parents feel pressure for their kids to have the best gear on but quite frankly that's something that will go on in real life too and the sooner a kid realises you can't have everything you want, the better. It's similar to parents complaining about the likes of Manchester United or whichever team bringing out new strips.."ah now we have to go and buy anothr one"..WHAT? Have you no ability to say no?

I don't think that dressing them like clones is the answer to that. My son is going through that many clothes (seems to grow an inch a month at this rate!) that uniform or no uniform he's going through clothes at a crazy rate. It's cheaper for me to but him clothes out of Pennys or Dunnes for school than buying a new uniform every few months. If he wants something that's expensive we make a deal, he's saves his pocket money and puts something towards it. Or has to wait for his birthday or a speacial occasion. At least then he has a sense of the value of money. (I know, i'm a bitch aren't I?!)

I was reading the NewPark school website and they have a school jumper and then it's trousers and shirt in a particular colour but you can get them from wherever.. that's maybe a fair compromise.