ISPs providing addresses of p2p users to the IRMA? (3 Viewers)

[Vinnie]

I think the idea of blithely accepting the death of the music industry as we know it and and embracing the alleged democratizing cultural utopia of p2p sharing is as short sighted as the major labels who tried to fight back the online tide with lawyers. Tarring all record labels as shadowy middlemen with their hand in the artists back pocket and associating them all with the excess & greed of major labels is deeply unfair and is one of the straw men that prevents these discussions from ever getting off the ground (see also home taping, second hand, "it's "inevitable", it's "theft", "art for the people", dowloaders are "criminals" etc etc). Digitalisation is not progress by definition and no other industry illustrates this like the music industry. Trying to hang on to the physical form is not some hippy pipedream - it is an absolutely practical response to a chronic dilution of the form which is one of the reasons that vinyl is returning with such a (limited) vengeance

But there is nothing to fight as far as downloading goes. It has all the contradictory hallmarks of the war on drugs and the same doomed bravado of those leading it. All you can do is educate people of the long-term practical benefits of contributing to the arts in tandem with file-sharing and make the physical product something truly worth owning so that the two forms compliment each other instead of these baffling & regressive ideas that the internet simply steamrolls all that came before it or that what came before must fight the internet with all its might.

 

[Unicron]

How do you expect artists to make art if they're not paid for their art?

Because they enjoy doing it?

 

[Diumraid]

Because they enjoy doing it?

I'll venture to suggest that a lot of music that you enjoy could not have been made for fun. Writing, rehearsing and recording music cost money / time which only makes sense as an investment in terms of future returns. The bigger the project the less likely it is to happen if people are refusing to pay for the work. Downloaders are shitting in their own paddling pool.

edit: I'm not against the freedom of information but in the days of home taping you probably knew the person you were taping the album from... the ratio of hard copy bought to copies made was an awful lot more favourable to the artist. This really is a new funk.

 

[Cryptid]

That's a horrible attitude in fairness. How do you expect artists to make art if they're not paid for their art? I'm not against downloading for free or sharing, but I am against not paying for stuff if you think it's great.

That was a bit ott actually. It's easy to be negligent about buying music. It's the best putting on a great lp though.

Buying second hand music is good for the artists as it puts a value on the product and inflates or deflates the market for particular items, in the same way as any second hand market does. It also keeps the outlets open, which also helps artists.

 

[Cryptid]

Edit.

 

[Jill Hives]

I admit I like to test out music for free. I'm pretty damn poor most of the time. I'll trade albums with people and if I like something then I'll go out and buy more. I'll also will go to their shows, buy t-shirts and cds at gigs. If I didn't get to test some things out they wouldn't get my money for any of the rest because it would be too much of a gamble. If I like a band and someone sends me a leaked link, damn straight I'm gonna listen but I'll also buy the cd when it's released.

 

[Froog]

Trying to hang on to the physical form is not some hippy pipedream - it is an absolutely practical response to a chronic dilution of the form which is one of the reasons that vinyl is returning with such a (limited) vengeance

thats all well and good, but i think the majority of people don't want physical media anymore, mp3's are just plain handier.

 

[Diumraid]

I admit I like to test out music for free. I'm pretty damn poor most of the time. I'll trade albums with people and if I like something then I'll go out and buy more. I'll also will go to their shows, buy t-shirts and cds at gigs. If I didn't get to test some things out they wouldn't get my money for any of the rest because it would be too much of a gamble. If I like a band and someone sends me a leaked link, damn straight I'm gonna listen but I'll also buy the cd when it's released.

People who are in any way conscientious about these things are really not the problem...

The other crisis that's hitting us is the information overload. I read Eno trying to put a positive spin on the situation saying that his daughter's MP3 player is full of tunes from five decades, where back in the day last year's music was already passe. Of course the eclecticism is wonderful but there seems to be no ordering principle, everything is timeless - get ready for 2009 nostalgia - kicking off on the 01/01/2010

There's evidence of a move toward the concrete and the timely: artists who can't sell CDs doing well on the live circuit, the refusal of vinyl to finally die as we were promised. I think this will consolidate itself into a market for seriously special items, in terms of packaging and artwork - things that can't be turned into digital stock.

I also propose an anti music pollution movement. Silence in the courtyard - silence in the street and particularly in Tesco where they use the most aggravating ersatz contemporary pop music. Bizarre.

 

[Unicron]

I'll venture to suggest that a lot of music that you enjoy could not have been made for fun. Writing, rehearsing and recording music cost money / time which only makes sense as an investment in terms of future returns.

My point is that for many artists in whatever medium their reason for doing art is out of a creative compulsion and I think that many or even most people who are fortunate enough to make money out of it even if they didn't would still be making art albeit on a far less widely known scale and within tighter budgets. Whether or not I'd ever got to see/hear/enjoy it is another thing entirely.

I think this is a really prevalent idea. That musicians don't "work". Why should people have to do another activity to subsidise being a musician? Why is it considered such a joke of an occupation? Fair enough that there's room for doing it as a interest. But it should also be viable to do it as a career.

I'm not saying that I regard being a musician as being a "joke" career, I'd hold it in equal regard to any other profession that isn't one of the ones that that I'd consider as being fundamentally important to the operation of society to have people doing and I don't begrudge any musician a penny that they make. Of course it should be a viable career option for people but pretty much anything should be. But my point is, as I said above, that I think a lot of people who do make money out of it would do it anyway.

 

[Lepra]

has anyone playing good music whinged about loss of earnings or the potential loss of earnings? i can't think of any...

 

[Unicron]

There's evidence of a move toward the concrete and the timely: artists who can't sell CDs doing well on the live circuit, the refusal of vinyl to finally die as we were promised. I think this will consolidate itself into a market for seriously special items, in terms of packaging and artwork - things that can't be turned into digital stock.

Trent Reznor suggested something like that recently when he blogged about what he thinks new/unknown bands should be doing.

http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?30,767183

Some good stuff there I thought.

 

[Unicron]

has anyone playing good music whinged about loss of earnings or the potential loss of earnings? i can't think of any...

Depends on what you like really. Nick Thorburn from Islands has gone on a couple of online rants about it. Dude from Future Of The Left was raging about it when their last album leaked as I recall.

 

[the departed]

Depends on what you like really. Nick Thorburn from Islands has gone on a couple of online rants about it. Dude from Future Of The Left was raging about it when their last album leaked as I recall.

dont feed the troll etc.

 

[Lepra]

hmph

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnKGLVAKkXs"]YouTube - Ghostface Killah speaks to his MySpace fans[/ame]

 

[nooleen]

That's a horrible attitude in fairness. How do you expect artists to make art if they're not paid for their art? I'm not against downloading for free or sharing, but I am against not paying for stuff if you think it's great.

isn't exactly what i said that i am willing to pay for stuff that i think is great?
can people please actually read my post before jackrabbiting into a reaction.

 

[nooleen]

So boycott food, clothes, books and just about anything else you buy. Start nicking everything because your justification is ridiculous - "the issue is clouded by the fact that so much of the earnings from sold music go to record labels etc..."
You can apply that analogy to almost anything you buy so nick it all.

What bothers me about you and people like you is not the fact that you download. It's that you use nonsense to justify it.
You say "I'd difinitely buy...." when you previously say 'I can't remember that last time I paid for...".
It wouldn't bother me half as much if you just said that you download because you can and you don't give a damn who it affects. At least it'd be honest.

what bothers you about 'people like me' is that you don't actually listen to what i've said and assume what you like to think is my stance, because assumptions are a handy launching point for your Opinions.
re-read my post.

jesus christ. thumped young conservatives club strikes again.

 

[Red_Dog]

Physical media is a drain on the worlds ressources , i'd be glad to see it go!

 

[Froog]

thumped young conservatives club strikes again.

fucking hell, do all your arguments end in this?

 

[aoboa]

what bothers you about 'people like me' is that you don't actually listen to what i've said and assume what you like to think is my stance, because assumptions are a handy launching point for your Opinions.
re-read my post.

jesus christ. thumped young conservatives club strikes again.

]

And what exactly did I miss out on?
It's 2 years since you bought something but you will buy something you think is great direct from an artist at a gig but it's still 2 years since you actually bought something and you're still downloading buttloads of music.
What subtext have I missed out on?

 

[the departed]

i learned on a previous thread on this topic that discussing/arguing/debating this is rather pointless with some people. not worth the time or effort.

kudos to aoboa and diarmuid for making some simple, well put valid points.