Converge in Dublin (2 Viewers)

[Daniel]

The New Noise Music Collective have organised shows in Galway for the last couple of shows, here are some very rough figures:

Total Chaos (adm 3): Got about 300, 3 of them were totally cool. 1 of them was a little grumpy but chilled after a while. Put up a great show, shared most equipment and were extremely grateful for the show at short notice. Went to night club with us afterwards and were friendly, good humoured and good fun all round.

Leftover Crack (adm 5): Got about 600, a little to harder to deal with before the show as they felt their guarantee would not be met and things were running late. Put on a decent show, shared some equipment .

SKINLAB FINANCIAL REPORT

TICKET SALES (200@€11) €2100


SKINLAB €900
LABRAT/FREEBASE €200
FOOD ( seems like a lot I know….fed about 20 people) €140
BEER € 50
TOWELS € 45
PHOTOCOPYING € 10
PHONE/INTERNET € 50
TAXIS € 30
EQUIPMENT HIRE € 50
PETROL € 30


TOTALS €2100 €1510

Soundman and PA hire was paid for by venue. This left us with a profit of about 500 which we used to buy a bass amp, some drinks for the organisers and the remainder was used to subsidise gigs that did not get such a big crowd ( usually DIY bands from the UK who were not known and therefore don’t get such a big crowd )
The guarantee for Skinlab/Labrat/Freebase together was about 750 (600 for Skinlab I think) which I felt was not that unreasonable…..! I gave them more than that because the show was sold out and people had paid 11 euro to see those bands so they deserved the extra money. The bands were totally cool, extremely grateful and friendly and all put up great shows. They shared their drink and were not rock stars. The show started at 5pm with 6 local support bands who all played for free. At 9:30 we changed the backline which the 3 main support bands used.

Lightyear (adm 3): Got about 150, great show, really nice guys no problems.

Of course we put on a shitload of DIY bands who were only on very small "guarantees" so i dont need to go into the details. As with most bands there were always some assholes amoungst them (americans/ english/ irish/ germans/ scots). Some bands were not keen on sharing equipment, Moaned about the price of beer, wanted free beer etc.

You might ask why i bothered putting on Skinlab/Total Chaos/Leftover Crack.
Skinlab- I saw and met them before. They were cool guys and play decent metal. I knew that alot of people liked them and they would pull a good crowd giving the local support bands to play in front of a lot of people.

Total Chaos- Have been listening to their stuff for 10 years, originally turned down the gig as the guarantee was too big, but Andrew asked me 10 days before they came over to fill their day off. I told him i could'nt give a guarantee which was cool.

Leftover Crack- I like their music.
Daniel Fuktifino

Can't wait for Converge.

 

[Baron]

Trues never spoke out of line when he was in Runnin' Riot.

 

[xConorx]

Trues...maybe you're pissed but you're talking shite.

I said I would rather play only DIY gigs and not gigs with high door prices or promoters. True. My exact stance on the Converge slot was "I really like Converge and I'd be up for playing this, it's someone we know doing the gig but it's up to everybody in the band".

If you'd been offered to play with Shelter (door price £4.50, less than half the guarantee Converge are looking, and put on by someone you definitely know, in a DIY venue and completely DIY manner) would you have done it?

 

[xConorx]

Also if anyone is curious and wants to see the bassist from Converge smack someone one the head with his bass watch the video clips from Gainsville fest I believe at this URL:

http://www.cflhardcore.com/Page/video.htm(scroll down to Converge and watch the clips that say "fight". I think the one called "The Broken Vow (fight!)" is the one where the bassist whacks someone over the head - this gig was less than a year ago. It's pretty funny watching the fight as it looks like the entire show is ruined.

I don't know the exact context of the fight (it had something to do with Ian Larabee from ReachTheSky being hit by security) but if certain other bands (remember the complaints after DillengerEscapePlan, are they still cool? I can't keep up) had behaved the way Converge do on those clips nobody in Dublin would put them on and there would be a fierce amount of shit talked about them on this board, but then again it *is* Converge.

I would once again like to stress (I must sound like a broken record player) that I don't have a problem with Converge, the promoters, the guarantee or anything. All I have a problem with is the blatant double-standard of which most of us are guilty:

one rule for bands we like, another rule for bands we don't like

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

one rule for bands we like, another rule for bands we don't like

People in "acting like people" shocker
who cares

andrew

 

[xConorx]

People in "acting like people" shocker
who cares

andrew

Yeah totally I actually understand that we all have biases but it was the sheer vehemence of the slating of other bands for lesser crimes against punk rock that bugs me.

xWise-upx

 

[scrawlzine]

Conor...regarding Shelter, I would not have played if asked because I think they suck musically, pure and simple. I have also a beef against anybody who built their band on such a fucked theology as Krishna, and then dropped it as soon as it wasn't cool.

Trues has been confronted personally by me about his remarks and he WAS pissed last night and had to face facts that what he said wasn't true. He says he is going to post something in clarification. I was genuinely surprised by his remarks as he does know me better. All decisions regarding gigs played are made as a band, not by one person.

I personally have never dealt with any band asking a guarantee. My criticism regarding guarantees was that the Warzone collective should, in my view, never put on bands with guarantees as it was contrary to the collective ethos that had been established. Other people did put on gigs there with guarantees, and they were welcome to. I find it illuminating that the people ranting on about this are not those with criticisms, but "promoters" who feel they need to defend the gigs they have organised in such a fashion. I've never had a beef with bands asking guaranttes, only unreasonable guarantees. The 2nd ever Dagda gig was with Godflesh who were paid £800 that night, whilst we recieved nothing. This experience illustrates the "big band" mentality that some promoters bow to. I personally want no part of it.

Personally I prefer the grass roots, DIY scene where guaranttes are a rarity and equipment is usually shared etc. I HAVE reservations about playing with Converge based on reports of shit attitude/behaviour...but decisions on whether we play a gig or not have always been a collective decision between band members and I can't say any more until then. I certainly don't regard it as a big deal..but my reservation about delaing PERSONALLY with bands demanding guarantees has been interpreted hysterically as an attack on the practice in general.

Hope this clarifies things for those who should know me better.

 

[xConorx]

Fair enough Glyn although I think the krshna thing is a bit of a lame excuse - Ray genuinely seems embarrassed by a lot of the krshna stuff and has more than enough shite over the years and definitely has stopped trying to ram it down people throats. He knows better than to act like a dick about krishna these days. I am not making excuses - I still think krshna is stupid.

As regards the Warzone Collective issue, you still played with Poison Idea in the Warzone Centre and they had an absolutely obscene guarantee, although as far as I know they didn't complain when they didn't get the full guarantee. Please understand that I am not having a dig or anything as I know where you are coming from but I just don't think it's as black and white - we all make excuses and find reasons when it's bands we like.

Again as I have repeatedly stated, I am not necessarily justifying any bands guarantee in particular, I was merely trying to highlight the fact that a gross double standard exists here regarding attitudes toward bands that sound different. I think it really does boil down to that sometimes - people will moan about guarantees, riders, attitudes, onstage behaviour for bands they don't like and completely disregard similar (but legitimate) gripes with bands who play music they like.

Also I seriously would be interested to see what people think of the video footage of that fight at the Converge show in the link a few threads above. Anyone who was pissed off by DEP antics should find the video footage of particular interest, although for a slightly different reason (I don't think Converge were going out their way to be dicks but the bass-whack on the head is completely mad). If the guitarist of a "mosh" or "toughguy" (I dunno, Madball or Knuckledust or something like that - easy/lazy examples) band behaved like that would it be any less acceptable? "Hey you can't put those guys on the beat people up onstage they are thugs" I reckon there would be outrage and boycotts and immense amounts of shit-talking. But when it's Converge it is probably "man that's all part of the intensity man, those guys just care so much that they *have* to go crazy anyway, they don't call themslves hc anymore".

Everybody needs to wise up (myself included)

 

[Damage Central]

I personally have never had any problems with guarantees per se. If a band is pulling £800 or £1000 or whatever worth of people though the door, it's better they get the cash than the promoters. I guess this is where 'guarantees' comes from - bands evaluating what they're worth based on what they pull and safeguarding their earnings. For me, the routine falls into trouble when bands get greedy and set their guarantees unrealistically high. This seems to happen all the time, based on what I know of gig promoters here and in the UK. Greed is not good!

It would be fucking great if all bands played for a share of whatever came though the door, all door prices were under a fiver, and everybody shared gear etc etc - but if you want to deal with some of the 'big' bands you've been into for years (and yes I fully realise not everybody does) then you have to play by at least some of their rules. I may have lost money putting on some disastrous gigs but I did it ALL in a DIY fashion and have nothing to feel bad about!

On the subject of Poison Idea, they were initially asking quite an obscene amount - I think they expected similar crowds to those they were pulling before they broke - but after some negotiation, a new, better, more (dare I say it) DIY deal was struck and everybody left that gig happy. Except maybe Baron and Phil who were still cleaning up sick at 3.30am.

 

[xConorx]

Aye I wasnae having a go at you Andrew when I mentioned the Poison Idea thing.

 

[Cormcolash]

The origin of the guarantee

It would be great if bands could go and play tours and not need guarantees to get by because they know that the people putting on the shows are 100% reliable and will not fuck them over.
The problem is, a huge amount of people out there would fuck them over given any chance they get, and this is where the guarantee has arisen from. Because most touring bands need to know for sure that they will at the very least get most of their travelling costs covered from a gig, and if they're guaranteed that then they don't need to worry about it.
As far as we're concerned in Ireland, thats shit because the vast majority of people that put on gigs over here are dead-on and will come through, but unfortunately as with everything there are people in places that will ruin it all for someone else, and some people can destroy the trust a touring band may have in not just one (for lack of a better word) promoter but everyone that puts on gigs everywhere.
And so the guarantee arises, because most bands couldn't afford to go and play gigs in places if they had to pay their travelling expenses themselves, so they ask for a bit of money to cover it. Then these booking agencies spring up and start taking bits of that in exchange for booking gigs in bulk at much less hassle to the band, then various other expenses start popping up all over the place, and we arrive at the current situation where the vast majority of bands are unable to play anywhere that costs a bit of money to get to without getting some of their travelling expenses covered at least. And let us remember that Ireland can be a very expensive place to get to seeing as it requires a plane or a ferry to get to.
Of course some bands do take the piss then and ask for way more than they need just to cover expenses, and it goes on and on. But at the end of the day, I reckon guarantees must have originally come about because some people were fucking bands over on occassions, and maybe that wouldn't happen nowadays but unfortunately the 'system' is already in place.
Plus when all is said and done, pretty much everybody likes to be able to cover the cost of getting somewhere hundreds of miles away to play a gig. So a big question I will ask is:

Does a guarantee mean any money over the expense of travelling, or are travelling costs in themselves considered a guarantee?

As far as I'm concerned, any travelling costs whatsoever constitute a guarantee, and while there may be bands that will not specifically ask for them anyway, even these bands will usually expect to receive some money from playing the gig in this regard. And what 'promoter' won't give a travelling band any money whatsoever even if a band gets £30 and thats a fraction of what they spent to get to the gig? I think at this stage you will find that most 'promoters' everywhere will try and do anything to get the band that fraction of the costs if it is at all possible, even if it involves having a whip-around with people at the gig (and I've seen that happen numerous times).

 

[W.]

Re: The origin of the guarantee

i was asked to lock this thread, but i think it's probably one of the most interesting/important threads that has even been on this site and as such shan't.

 

[Corm]

Arrgh! I wrote a big long reply to this clearing up some misconceptions that people seem to have...inshort, I don't really see where this double-standard thing comes from.

I gave out about the Apers because of a letter to MRR which described various shitty attitudes about punk and DIY in them to which neither they, their label nor their friends ever responded to, plus I used to be sent stuff by Stardumb Records with lots of bullshit promo, publicity, etc material, which has always left a bad taste in my mouth no matter what type of band it comes from, but especially so from so-called punk bands. I gave out abiout Right 4 Life cos they were looking for a big guarantee, had various "rider" demands, etc, when they were an average band who no-one had heard of with Christian lyrics. So fuckin what?

In neither of these cases nor with Shelter did anything about a guarantee come up; the only negative opinions I gave of these or other bands was based on taking in everything I'd heard about the band. It had nothing to do with them not being crusty or anarcho enough or whatever, and I think this issue was only brought up cos people were looking for an excuse to air their own petty grievances.

The other issue is the Converge gig; I can't believe the snottiness and begrudgery of some of the people posting here. Most of you know Damo and would be well aware that this gig is non-profit (except of course for Converge), and that Damo would be more than willing to answer any questions about it if you actually asked him instead of making accusations, etc on the internet.
The fact of the matter is that if anyone else, ANYONE else in Dublin were putting this gig on it would be at least 1 & 1/2 times the price it is. Converge might not be the best example, but I think this is the sort of thing that has to be done if DIY is to be made effective and to provide some sort of security for bands if we're serious about existing outside of the music industry. Otherwise bands will keep just "selling out" and getting profit-orientated managers, etc to conduct their business for them. It's imperative to portray an example of how well DIY can and does work if we're serious about providing an alternative rather than a pissy subculture. That way bigger bands with bigger audiences will be further encouraged to stay DIY and will only strenghten the opposition to the profit motive taking over from what its really about.

 

[bohs punks]

cormac i dont think peopel are saying that damo is making money out of this, in fact if you look at the last two paras of my post it says i know this not to be the case by virtue of what i know of gz, the point being that the average punter may not if it is not clearly stated, in fact this is a great opportunity to expalin the whole non profit thing to peopel used to paying over the top prices.

anyway on guaranteesand what constitutes fair payment ansd what is profit making????

we all like to know what money we are getting at the end of the week, i doubt too many peopel would take a job based on " look you will get a share of what we take in , if its a shitty week we wont pay you, if we do well we will look after you"

obviously for bands who have no anti captialist politics and who treat the whole thing as a career its the market place that decides what they will get i.e they will try to make as much money by charging the highest charge the market will support. we have all been in discussions based on this, eg iron maiden " id go if it was 15 but 45 is too much" etc obviously mcd think the market can support 45 euro and thats what is charged.

However if punk is about non profit, communtiy, diy , etc then whats a fair guarantee / payment cant be based on what the most the kids will pay is.

people in bands have bills etc same as the rest of us, i agree it is justified for them to think that the will get paid and soem peopel cant afford to take a chance , especially if they dont know the promoters etc.

but what is a fair price for bands to charge?

lets say an american 4 piece plays one date in ireland as part of a european and uk tour.

flights from uk to ireland and back x 4 plus roadie = 500 max can be got cheaper if booked in advance.

other general travel and strings etc expenses - 100 euro tops

Food and accomaodation supplied by promoter = o euro

If not supplied by venue = 250? (hostel and cheap eats)

good wage for the days work plus one day traveling with no other gig????

this last bit is the hard one- whats a fair price to pay someone for their work performing a gig and all it ensues and do you deserve more pay if your band is better known or if you have more needs or what?

lets say 50 euro a day - personally i think thats a fair price for a days work even for soemone with kids etc if food and acom are taken care of .
50 x 5 x two days =500 euro

so in my humble opinion travel plus food and accom plus a decent days pay x 5 peopel for two days to do one gig in ireland = 1350 euro = fair enough

now i dont think bands usually get anything like this so most diy bands coming here must lose money - ie it is a workign holiday.

anything over 1350 then you could argue they are taking the mickey out of the diy scene- from these maths its mostly a loss making scenario i would imagine for bands rather than profit.

most bands on the diy circuit dont get paid for their work , just travel etc expenses and rely on food / free drink to cover the days they are here imo.

anyway maybe my math is all wrong but overall id say at the minute we get more back from bands than we put in, when peopel ask about did such a band break even over here its really just the travel they are talking about- the rest is labour for the love of the job and the undoubted madness and fun of being on tour.

so for me non profit bands include all travel etc costs and fair pay for the band memebers work - after this its making money from the scene.

similarly with promoters makign a living - great if you can do this volunatary but theres fair pay for your work also and thats ok with me but dont take the piss.

 

[xConorx]

Re: The origin of the guarantee

i was asked to lock this thread, but i think it's probably one of the most interesting/important threads that has even been on this site and as such shan't.

I agree, and so do a lot of people I have spoken to. This is worth talking about and seeing as a lot of us live in different ciites it is obviously more practical doing it here!

 

[xConorx]

Arrgh! I wrote a big long reply to this clearing up some misconceptions that people seem to have...inshort, I don't really see where this double-standard thing comes from.

I gave out about the Apers because of a letter to MRR which described various shitty attitudes about punk and DIY in them to which neither they, their label nor their friends ever responded to, plus I used to be sent stuff by Stardumb Records with lots of bullshit promo, publicity, etc material, which has always left a bad taste in my mouth no matter what type of band it comes from, but especially so from so-called punk bands. I gave out abiout Right 4 Life cos they were looking for a big guarantee, had various "rider" demands, etc, when they were an average band who no-one had heard of with Christian lyrics. So fuckin what?

So basically you believed a bunch of stuff you read in MRR rather than basing your opinion on actually meeting the guys from the band? Nice one. As far as I know they turned out to be lovely fellas and very DIY. You are joking regarding the "bullshit promo, publicity, etc material, which has always left a bad taste in my mouth" right? You do realize that Converge will have shit loads of promo type stuff and their label Equalvision always does one-sheets, and in fact their first two full-lengths are being re-released with even more new artwork wow.
Right 4 Life were looking for a big guarantee? What the fuck are you talking about? I put them on in Belfast (with no guarantee) and they got 85 quid and never complained about the money they got. I don't even like the band and I agree that the thanks to God in their liner notes is bullshit but lets stick to the fact here Cormy - they were not looking for a big guarantee. Also I don't ever remember getting a rider from them, if I did they certainly didn't get it - they got treated the same as everyone else, food and a place to stay - they were greatful. Then again they don't play cool music.
As regards having a rider - do Converge have one? I'll be surprised if they don't. Just heard their Manchester guarantee is £1100 (1700eur approx?) D.I.Y!

The other issue is the Converge gig; I can't believe the snottiness and begrudgery of some of the people posting here. Most of you know Damo and would be well aware that this gig is non-profit (except of course for Converge), and that Damo would be more than willing to answer any questions about it if you actually asked him instead of making accusations, etc on the internet.
The fact of the matter is that if anyone else, ANYONE else in Dublin were putting this gig on it would be at least 1 & 1/2 times the price it is. Converge might not be the best example, but I think this is the sort of thing that has to be done if DIY is to be made effective and to provide some sort of security for bands if we're serious about existing outside of the music industry. Otherwise bands will keep just "selling out" and getting profit-orientated managers, etc to conduct their business for them. It's imperative to portray an example of how well DIY can and does work if we're serious about providing an alternative rather than a pissy subculture. That way bigger bands with bigger audiences will be further encouraged to stay DIY and will only strenghten the opposition to the profit motive taking over from what its really about.

No one is being snotty or begrudging the people putting on this gig anything - I think it's pretty clear that most people who have posted so far are very sympathetic to Damo's position - the point is that when the shoe was on the other foot other people were given shit for putting on bands with guarantees that aren't hype and cool.
It is abundantly clear that Damo/GZ are not doing this gig to make money - I actually don't know why that was brought up because not a single person had accused GZ of trying to make money of this gig.

the point being that the average punter may not if it is not clearly stated, in fact this is a great opportunity to expalin the whole non profit thing to peopel used to paying over the top prices.

Bohs Punks

Couldn't agree more with that. Gigs like this are a good opportunity to show why DIY has the interests of the people attending gigs, the bands and the kids putting on gigs in mind - rather than the profit-oriented motives of other promoters.

 

[xConorx]

Conor...regarding Shelter, I would not have played if asked because I think they suck musically, pure and simple. I have also a beef against anybody who built their band on such a fucked theology as Krishna, and then dropped it as soon as it wasn't cool.

Converge's three full-length albums (not including Unloved and Weeded Out or Caring and Killing which I think are rare/demo/live/unreleased/7" comp. type things) Jane Doe, When Forever Comes Crashing and Petitioning the Empty Sky are all released on Equalvision records. A well known-krishna label - check out their logo, owner and back Catalogue. Responsible for the release of various Krshna stuff: 108, Kirtan Ecstasy, Prema, the RayCappo/StevenRose conversation book "In Defense of Reality", and a Shelter (boo-hiss *evil*) video and CD.
As far as I know both When Forever Comes Crashing and Petitioning the Empty Sky are being re-released soon on Equalvision.

Are you going to start complaining about them? Where do we draw the line? Is this cool? I realise this is stretching the argument here but that's the point I am trying to make. People will nit-pick and find fault with bands the hate and find convenient excuses for bands they are into. It wouldn't even bother me so much - it's just the fact that a lot of people were really vehement, outspoken and often just mean regarding previous bands that have toured.

Apologies if I sound like a wanker.

 

[oh shit]

on the subject of 'ridiculous guaratees'...

bands do lose money touring unless and until they 'make a name for themselves'.
at the point where they know they can play in bigger towns and pretty much be guaranteed enough paying punters to actually start subsidising their living expenses and not just their band - ie the position that converge (and fugazi, and shellac, and any other 'big' independent band) are in - then they are naturally going to make sure they ask to be paid that money. they aren't extorting anyone and they aren't taking the piss. these are bands who have put years of their lives into playing and supporting the indie music scene- they pull crowds because a) they have done the hard work and b) they are usually better bands than most.

anyway, i dont think 12 euro is a lot to ask- its not much more than a cinema ticket.

 

[brianMy Remorse]

on the subject of 'ridiculous guaratees'...

these are bands who have put years of their lives into playing and supporting the indie music scene- they pull crowds because a) they have done the hard work and b) they are usually better bands than most.

anyway, i dont think 12 euro is a lot to ask- its not much more than a cinema ticket.

Fair point indeed. ok so next time a big band (to be fair i think everyone here will agree converge are big, there wouldnt be the same discussion if they werent, perhaps your point xconorx?) we'll tell damien, jillface and all the others involved in GZ not to bother puttin it on? i went to glassjaw last year and that was an MCD gig that cost bout 22/25euro a ticket, we're now gettin converge for 12. are we to leave all other gigs open to MCD to exploit the situation to earn money? one thing i do know is that bands talk. if converge leave ireland after a nice gig and having been treated well by those who put them on, they'll tell others of this when speaking of tourin europe. fact.this means other bands are being told, "yeah if you go to ireland, go through these guys, they're spot on", which means more gigs could go this way in future. now im not sayin that people are attackin damien an co on this issue, but i do think its become a big headache and i hope it wont turn them off doin this in future. as for the pro/anti DIY stance, all ill say is that some bands get big, some dont. for those who do, there is a bigger public demand to see them, which means playin bigger venues, which means bigger rental costs, organisational costs etc etc. so invarioubly prices will rise, its just a question of how honourably they deal with the people who are still at grass roots level which determines their DIY stance in my opinion.

 

[Damage Central]

12 euros is a good price, of course it is - I don't think anyone is remotely disputing that.

I seem to recall a lot of yapping when MDC and Total Chaos/Turbo A.C.'s were 12 euros though.