Channel 4's news on the Leb/Israeli conflict compared to Sky (1 Viewer)

[Janer]

Is unbelevably so differant..........the pictures we are now seeing on the 7pm bulletin are appalling.......it's more or less genocide, whole villages wiped from the map in south Leb.

Yet all Sky news do is roll out Israeli ministers blabbering out "terrorists" bla bla

 

[the bongo]

you should see what they print on the cover of 'the arab times' here, just the other day they had a photo of two men holding up the inverted corpse of a child by the feet. it looked like two depressed fishermen and their awful catch. really strong stuff.

genocide it is not though.

 

[Janer]

Whole villages wiped of the map????
Did u see Channel 4's film of the "villages"

 

[xrockridgex]

Sky will show the devastation caused by both sides to buildings and mention the casualties on both sides, but piles of rubble tend to look the same after a while, and television is at the end of the day such a purely visual medium that people think its some how equal.

did anyone see the Chief of police in Haifa being interviewed yesterday? Ah mean for christs sake.

 

[Shay HT]

For the ultimate in shoite news coverage on it (and EVERYTHING) check out fox!

wish Al Jezeera would broadcast a channel in english

 

[skrellp]

genocide it is not though.

I'm not fond of hyperbolic terms, as they tend to make debate - in such countries as these unaffected by the conflict in direct terms - difficult to continue in a controlled and rational fashion, but Israel's attempted aim: to exterminate Hezbollah, whether they believe this can be done by simply targeting the members or whether they need to wipe out the whole Shiite population of Lebanon, amounts to genocide either way.

This is harrowing reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1823660,00.html

 

[quasiquasi]

Israel's attempted aim: to exterminate Hezbollah, whether they believe this can be done by simply targeting the members or whether they need to wipe out the whole Shiite population of Lebanon, amounts to genocide either way.

I don't see how this follows...(it seems that) Israel's goal is to cripple Hezbollah's ability to threaten it; they are not targetting any ethnic or national group. That they don't care who else suffers through their actions is morally indefensible, but it doesn't come close to genocide

 

[skrellp]

I don't see how this follows...(it seems that) Israel's goal is to cripple Hezbollah's ability to threaten it; they are not targetting any ethnic or national group. That they don't care who else suffers through their actions is morally indefensible, but it doesn't come close to genocide

Because to target a political group, in such a fashion as to wipe out all their members, amounts to genocide as well. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide) I admit, not all references will include the targeting of political groups, but one so linked with a religious/ethnic group such as hezbollah, and taken into account Israel's indiscriminate targeting of shiite areas, this surely amounts to genocide.

Having said that, there are reports in the Irish Times today that the Christian areas of east Beirut are being hit now.

 

[oh shit]

I don't see how this follows...(it seems that) Israel's goal is to cripple Hezbollah's ability to threaten it; they are not targetting any ethnic or national group. That they don't care who else suffers through their actions is morally indefensible, but it doesn't come close to genocide

Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: [FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono] [/FONT]In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: ​

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
​

Article III: [FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono] [/FONT]The following acts shall be punishable: ​

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "
​

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.

Punishable ActsThe following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Key Terms
The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.


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In sum, even if you choose to believe Israel's denial that they are doing anything other than "fighting terrorists", it's still genocide.

 

[Goff]

All the western news I’ve seen so far has been pro-Israel to some extent. Even when they mention the fact that hundreds are being killed in Lebanon, it’s still tainted with talk of “the terrorists”. BBC are particularly despicable in their misrepresentations. As usual. For a channel that constantly talks of its impartiality, it’s extremely imbalanced. One of their reporters was screaming at people fleeing their homes, “What about the rocket attacks on Israel?!” as if it was all Hezbollah and nobody else firing rockets. I think Israel boasting about dropping 23 tons of high explosive on a village is a bit drastic.

Fox news is, as ever, completely hawkish, but you expect that. Let them have their say (Sometimes I think even they don’t take themselves seriously). Even out the balance with Al-Jazeera or some other station. But BBC are always going on with their holier than thou don’t-take-sides-shite, yet they are sitting on one big pro-Israeli side of that fence.

It’s obvious that Israel’s goal isn’t to just cripple Hezbollah’s ability to inflict damage, but to destroy them completely. But there is a deeper agenda here. For one, they’re trying to blame Syria and Iran for supplying weapons to Hezbollah in the first place. Taken to the extreme, that would make Britain and the United States of America responsible for the deaths in Lebanon as they have supplied weapons and expertise to the IDF.

Maybe this whole thing is organised to up the ante against the “Axis of Evil” in that region. It is not just about defence. And the propaganda in the UK press about the Spirit of Dunkirk is sickening. It would also seem to me that this “evacuation” has been planned in advance. It’s one thing sending a few boats the few miles to France but sending them to the Middle East is something else. They were already in the area.

I know I’m probably being overly cynical but this whole thing has been well planned. The execution might have been opportunistic, but it was already going to happen.

The Israeli’s do not just bomb people on a whim.

 

[hugh]

Having said that, there are reports in the Irish Times today that the Christian areas of east Beirut are being hit now.

True ... but it seems that these were missiles aimed at trucks that they mistook (or claim to have mistaken) for Hizbollah rocket carriers or something.

Those articles on genocide that Oh Shit quoted seem, even to someone pretty ignorant of legal language such as myself, to be pretty leaky. Surely, it could be argued that any killing of anyone falls within into this category. If I kill someone then surely that person is a member of some ethnic group or nationality which I have then had intent to destroy in part. Couldn't Hezbollah be accused of genocide on the same basis? They are just, eh, not as good at it .....

 

[aoboa]

Anne Coulters take on the subject:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...Coulter&dt=07/19/2006&page=full&comments=true

 

[snakybus]

I wonder what Matisyahu has to say about all this...

 

[quasiquasi]

Those articles on genocide that Oh Shit quoted seem, even to someone pretty ignorant of legal language such as myself, to be pretty leaky. Surely, it could be argued that any killing of anyone falls within into this category. If I kill someone then surely that person is a member of some ethnic group or nationality which I have then had intent to destroy in part. Couldn't Hezbollah be accused of genocide on the same basis? They are just, eh, not as good at it .....

I think we're also just going to end up arguing about the meaning of "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". My take is that Hezbollah are not a nation, an ethnicity, a race or a religious denomination. Calling for the deaths of all Israelis, on the other hand, would be a call for genocide.

 

[Wobbler]

Anne Coulters take on the subject:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=liberals:_born_to_run&ns=AnnCoulter&dt=07/19/2006&page=full&comments=true

Excellent stuff

 

[Bluto]

holy shit - i'd hate to meet her in a dark alley

Anne Coulters take on the subject:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=liberals:_born_to_run&ns=AnnCoulter&dt=07/19/2006&page=full&comments=true

 

[Corey]

I watched zurich last night. I want a single, short and to the point sentence explaining how and when this all started. Time is money, hurry up.

 

[aoboa]

I watched zurich last night. I want a single, short and to the point sentence explaining how and when this all started. Time is money, hurry up.

People

 

[Pantone247]

The footage The Daily Show has been showing from FOX and CNN is hilarious, and obviously selected and edited to be such... endless reams of "how will this affect America" pish posh

"most people will feel the pain at the petrol pump"

oh the humanity

 

[Pantone247]

And the propaganda in the UK press about the Spirit of Dunkirk is sickening. It would also seem to me that this “evacuation” has been planned in advance.

I would disagree about the BBC's impartiality a bit there, but I would agree with the bizzare way the evacuation has been covered... a real "well thanks christ all the westerners are safe. They are, by fluke of birth, far too important to be left in that hell hole"