Channel 4's news on the Leb/Israeli conflict compared to Sky (1 Viewer)

[Goff]

I think you might mean "guerilla"? Or maybe you actually mean gorilla.

No I reckon that’s about right judging by the overall “accuracy”. Dear God. Terrorists. Define.

 

[Bluto]

I think you might mean "guerilla"? Or maybe you actually mean gorilla.

aye - not the first mistake of the day!

 

[Bluto]

No I reckon that’s about right judging by the overall “accuracy”. Dear God. Terrorists. Define.

Not sure how you want me to answer this but a terrorist is someone who uses violence to get what they want.

Hezbollah have been involved in firing rockets and making attacks on Israeli targets since the Israeli's pulled out. Now I'm not condoning Israel's reaction and I think it has been way too excessive, but when you live here and see what they go through in the northern villages (which I've been to and have friends living in) you realise that Israel's reaction is to make sure that their people are safe from these attacks.

Would you classify the IRA as terrorists?
http://classes.washburnlaw.edu/khan/publications/19CLR945.htm

 

[Goff]

“The first step to getting a ceasefire will only happen when Hezbollah's armed wing is seen as a terrorist group and dealt with as such.”

It’s the inaccuracies in the post I don’t like. H’s armed wing is seen as a terrorist group on some lists. On others, the whole of the organisation is. But they’re all “western” lists.

You have to remember they were born of an Israeli invasion on Lebanon in the first place (something which is happening again as we speak). Therefore, in my book, that would make them resistance fighters. People standing against tyranny. Something the IRA also did. Would I define the IRA as terrorists? Nowadays, yes, when there are other avenues open to them. Olden times, that would depend on the act. Also, the ‘Ra didn’t provide social security. But resistance fighters or no, I still don’t agree with H either. The knew what Israel’s response would be.

What Israel have done is use the excuse of two of their servicemen being kidnapped to launch an invasion. Whether or not the Israeli’s were kidnapped or detained depends on which media you believe. The Lebanese media says there were in Southern Lebanon. The west say Israel. I don’t believe any of them. But whatever the truth of that, holding two soldiers captive does not warrant one bomb being dropped on a civilian populace. The fact that Israel have thousands of people interned may explain why H want to kidnap/detain Israeli soldiers as a bargaining chip. Firing rockets at Israel after they themselves have been bombed would sound like defence to me. Albeit an incorrect form. In part, I’m sure they’re egging them on.

I know people who were sitting in Observation Posts well zeroed in by Israel in the thirty year occupation as bombs rained around them, even though they were painted Blue with big white letters saying UN. In order for them not to observe. In defence of the northern villages being terrorised, have you not seen the news in the last twenty/thirty years?

Terrorist is a dirty word. One man’s terrorist is another man’s saviour. Israel has committed war crimes. As has H, I’m sure.

I do like your analogy of the BNP aiming rockets at Oireland though. Far-fetched and all as it is. But I hear ye. It’s just a different kettle of fish.

 

[Bluto]

I agree on your comments about terrorists - it depends on which side of the fence you sit. However, as we know back home, armed struggle only gets you so far.

But my main point was that the Lebanese minister basically seemed unwilling to stand up to Hezbollah. If the government can't/won't stand up against them I don't see any point in sending in an international force. As hezbollah and local lebanese will always see the international force as outsiders medling in their affairs.

But don't think I'm blaming only Hezbollah, I have lots of problems with how Israel is handling the situation and how they behaved in the past. I just feel that as a government the Lebanese one needs to be stronger and show its determination to have peace.

 

[Janer]

It should be noted here that the greater number of the Lebanese people appear to be extremely pissed off at Hezbollah's actions.. .

And you have proof of this?

It's the other way round, it has drawn in all the diff factions/religons into one camp for the 1st time ever.

 

[Janer]

.

I wanted to derep you but I have used to much in the last 24 hours, 1st thing tommorow I will..|..|

 

[hugh]

Hezbollah have been involved in firing rockets and making attacks on Israeli targets since the Israeli's pulled out.

I asked this earlier in the thread and no-one answered. To what extent have they actually been doing this since 2000? How many Israeli civilians have been killed in these attacks?

 

[Janer]

As far as I know Hezbollah had being largely dormant since they drove Israel out in 2000.

BTW tonights UN resolution was a fucking disgrace and totally loaded in Israels favour

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1229850,00.html

 

[Bluto]

I asked this earlier in the thread and no-one answered. To what extent have they actually been doing this since 2000? How many Israeli civilians have been killed in these attacks?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/exeres/9EE216D7-82EF-4274-B80D-6BBD1803E8A7,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published

 

[hugh]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/exeres/9EE216D7-82EF-4274-B80D-6BBD1803E8A7,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published

Ok so that's statistics from the Israeli minsitry for foreign affairs. Everyone should go and look at it. It's pretty interesting. I could find the following incidents (out of a complete total of 20 or so incidents over the 6 year period) which resulted in civilian deaths.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.


All of the rest were attacks on the IDF. I'm not that familar with placenames and so on there but it would be interesting to know how many of them took place in Lebanon and how many in Israel itself. Some of them were in disputed areas such as the Sheba Farms. Anyone know what the Shlomi-Metzuba route is?

Anyway, this hardly constitutes an all-out continuing Hizbullah terrorist assault on the Israeli population does it?

 

[Janer]

Also you gotta laugh at Israel and the US going on non stop about Iran supplying arms to Israel yet even while they pretend (only after public revulsion) to be getting this UN resolution the US is continually supplying weapons and hi tech weapons at that.....wish the fuck a news journalist would say this when they are interviewing the pr types from Israel

 

[Bluto]

Anyway, this hardly constitutes an all-out continuing Hizbullah terrorist assault on the Israeli population does it?

But how can you classify an all-out terrorist offensive? If you know that Hezbollah have fired rockets into your country, have sponsored suicide bombers and are receiving newer and more powerful weapons all with the aim of killing your citizens then that is a terrorist assault and threat to your country. So should you wait for more things to happen or take the excuse when it appears (like the kidnappings) and go on the offensive

Going back to the news coverage of the conflict. Although this isn't about the current conflict it shows how news editing can be very misleading. The most "entertaining" section is at 4 minutes in
[video=google;3330818905742409257]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3330818905742409257[/video]

 

[broken arm]

But how can you classify an all-out terrorist offensive? If you know that Hezbollah have fired rockets into your country, have sponsored suicide bombers and are receiving newer and more powerful weapons all with the aim of killing your citizens then that is a terrorist assault and threat to your country. So should you wait for more things to happen or take the excuse when it appears (like the kidnappings) and go on the offensive

where does this end?

 

[Bluto]

where does this end?

Thats the Catch 22. There's always an argument for and against both sides. I think it'll only end when Lebanon has the power to control the whole of its country. Israelis want peace or more to the point they just want to be left alone

 

[Janer]

Israel wants peace me bollocks, what about their landgrab in the West bank with that wall, they have created dozens of useless enclaves for which are useless for farming or to get from A-B and so on.

 

[Bluto]

Israel wants peace me bollocks,

Thats too broad a statement to make

The religious and Zionist right are still a strong political force here so the government does pander to them. But if you look at the ordinary people not linked to a religious belief, which is a large majority here, they want to pull out of the west bank altogether and will be happy to see a 2 state solution where they can just live in peace.

I'm not sure if it was reported back home but Ehud Olmert has always talked about creating a 2 state solution and pulling out of the west bank. He was severely criticized recently for talking about realignment at the start of this conflict.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285296,00.html

 

[Janer]

His pulling out of the West Bank is anything but pulling out.
It's leaving the biggest settlements and of course that wall.

 

[Bluto]

.... and of course that wall.

The wall really is a disgrace. When you see it it makes you feel so sick. Hopefully it will never get completed

 

[hugh]

But how can you classify an all-out terrorist offensive? If you know that Hezbollah have fired rockets into your country, have sponsored suicide bombers and are receiving newer and more powerful weapons all with the aim of killing your citizens then that is a terrorist assault and threat to your country.

Hezbollah have fired rockets into Israel before July 12th this year but as the evidence you yourself have provided, these have been almost completely aimed at military targets.

On suicide bombings: they mostly stopped doing this around 1986 (even then it was largely against occupying armies within Lebanon) and formally renounced it in 1999.

On the weapons thing: Their stated aim is not to kill Israeli civilians but to protect southern Lebanon from Israeli invasion, which is presumably what they need the weapons for. Now I am not so naive as to swallow all this this hook, line and sinker, but their behaviour between 2000 and July 12th this year would seem to back it up.

So should you wait for more things to happen or take the excuse when it appears (like the kidnappings) and go on the offensive

I am somewhat in agreement with you here in that the kidnappings were certainly an "excuse" for Israel to go on the offensive. But it's not about protecting Israeli citizens from terrorist attack (there were few terrorist attacks on them before July 12th, now there's loads), or even about rescuing the soldiers (this could easily have been achieved with a prisoner swap as has happened in the past). It's about attempting to neutralise and eliminate any group that has the capacity to militarily oppose Israel.

By the way, I agree with you about most Israelis wanting peace. I just think the terms under which they believe they can achieve it are completely unrealistic.