BREXIT (13 Viewers)

[hermie]

I consider him the worst of all them and we were lucky it was a global boom at the time. He was power at all costs and in another economy he'd have gulags popping up all over the place if thats what got him the job and kept him in it. It just looks better because he'd the media monopolised and the top oiled out of caring.

Don't agree with that at all. I'm no fan of him or Fianna Fáil believe me but he did more good than either his mentor or successor. Cowan is the worst for me. I can't think of anything of note he ever did. He was belligerint, chose bad people, made bad choices and was generally unlikeable on top of everything else. And yet somehow made it to the highest office in the country. I think people wilfully overlook some of what Bertie did because he's a shit.

 

[billygannon]

Boris Johnson is a different level of shitbag than most other politicians. Including our gombeen shitehawks.

 

[therealjohnny]

It's his naked ambition coupled with his complete incompetence that makes him special...and yet he remains very popular.

 

[billygannon]

It's his naked ambition coupled with his complete incompetence that makes him special...and yet he remains very popular.

He put me off Sugar Puffs for life.

 

[ann post]

Don't agree with that at all. I'm no fan of him or Fianna Fáil believe me but he did more good than either his mentor or successor. Cowan is the worst for me. I can't think of anything of note he ever did. He was belligerint, chose bad people, made bad choices and was generally unlikeable on top of everything else. And yet somehow made it to the highest office in the country. I think people wilfully overlook some of what Bertie did because he's a shit.

He did good?? What was it?

 

[therealjohnny]

He did good?? What was it?

He is given partial credit for the success of The Good Friday Agreement

 

[hermie]

He did good?? What was it?

Wage agreements between unions and employers, the peace process, the economy first as minister for finance and then initially as leader (not later of course). His first term as Taoiseach is generally considered a roaring success by political historians.

 

[hermie]

In terms of environmental issues he was out of step with a lot of the political mainstream, in a good way. The plastic bag levy came in under his watch. Also the first offshore wind farm. Apparently inviting the Greens into government wasn't entirely politically motivated. He didn't need the seats (although obviously they gave him a buffer) but by all accounts he was interested in progressing a green agenda. Ironically he set the Green party back years in doing so but the country has categorically gone backwards in this area since.

 

[therealjohnny]

Wage agreements between unions and employers, the peace process,.

Not his fault I suppose, but many of these agreements were of the "I'm all right jack, and fuck any new employees" variety. See ESB, An Post, HSE for examples.

 

[pete]

every cloud and all that


Campaign Name: EO Brexit Coordination Administrator
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[hermie]

Not his fault I suppose, but many of these agreements were of the "I'm all right jack, and fuck any new employees" variety. See ESB, An Post, HSE for examples.

Yeah I think like a lot of what he did he was generally better at it in his early days and got lazier the more power he had.

He was a good negotiator though, a good deal-maker both in terms of labour relations and peace brokering.

Obviously I'm coming across as a massive apologist here, I should stress that his subsequent terms as Taoiseach did untold damage to the country and his reputation should remain in tatters over the corruption scandals. My initial point was just that I think there was at least something to him. Unlike Cowan who was a bad Minister for Health, a worse Minister for Finance and an even worse Taoiseach and yet he escapes the same degree of vitriol. I don't see this talk of a public rehabilitation. At the suggestion of Bertie as President he was laughed out of town. He's almost universally derided outside of Drumcondra.

 

[Squiggle]

Boris Johnson is a different level of shitbag than most other politicians. Including our gombeen shitehawks.

FactCheck: Boris Johnson lied about EU safety regulation in his resignation letter

 

[therealjohnny]

ugh

 

[Burgerbarbaby]

FactCheck: Boris Johnson lied about EU safety regulation in his resignation letter

The last few lines of that are really good...Johnson's source tries an extra-time save. It's very Newspeak, and very Trumpy.

 

[ann post]

Wage agreements between unions and employers, the peace process, the economy first as minister for finance and then initially as leader (not later of course). His first term as Taoiseach is generally considered a roaring success by political historians.

welll like saying he had a hand in the peace process is more a matter of timing? the peace process had everything to do with an exhausted population moving into prosperity in tandem with previously para organisations moving towards a political sphere and it was handy enough for him and bill clinton to land in for the ribbon cutting but its a pretty bold claim otherwise. He fucked the economy. He turned a short boom (2-3 years realistically) into a decade long lie using fake money to buy elections with zero long term planning with a trajectory of boom-> IMF in about 11 years flat. His 'negotiations' with the teachers was a few months of the press demonising them till all the public support was gone and then 'negotiating' with them. He typically just would give the manager of things a load of bonuses to make the problem go away.

Which political historians? They sound shite.

 

[ann post]

@hermie I've clearly triggered myself on this topic, don't want to be browbeating you. I guess considering he was a close witness to the haughey era and his response to it was 'that looks like a great way to do things, I'll do that except more agressively' kinda makes him worse by default.

 

[Unicron]

Not his fault I suppose, but many of these agreements were of the "I'm all right jack, and fuck any new employees" variety. See ESB, An Post, HSE for examples.

Teachers too. The young teachers who have entered the profession in the past decade were totally shafted by their older colleagues.

 

[nooleen]

He is given partial credit for the success of The Good Friday Agreement

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[hermie]

welll like saying he had a hand in the peace process is more a matter of timing? the peace process had everything to do with an exhausted population moving into prosperity in tandem with previously para organisations moving towards a political sphere and it was handy enough for him and bill clinton to land in for the ribbon cutting but its a pretty bold claim otherwise. He fucked the economy. He turned a short boom (2-3 years realistically) into a decade long lie using fake money to buy elections with zero long term planning with a trajectory of boom-> IMF in about 11 years flat. His 'negotiations' with the teachers was a few months of the press demonising them till all the public support was gone and then 'negotiating' with them. He typically just would give the manager of things a load of bonuses to make the problem go away.

Which political historians? They sound shite.

More of the same? I think you've just forgotten how bad Haughey was. He was extraordinarily vain and far more corrupt (a huge culture of brown envelopes, phone-tapping scandals, intimidation of journalists and law enforcement etc). And nowhere near as good on the economy. His terms saw a litany of blunders in this area. Haughey started a trade war with the UK. Of course the yokels loved him for "standing up" to Maggie but the 80s was an appaling time to live in Ireland because of it. And he lorded it up while the rest tightened their belts. Bertie deserves a lot of credit for the boom and equally a lot of stick for wasting it. But his main failing was basically his inaction and laissez faire attitude to what he had helped create. Cheap credit flooded in from abroad and he did nothing to put the skids on. But let's not cod ourselves into thinking Fine Gael wouldn't have done the same nor that basically every other country in the developed world didn't suffer a similar fate after the crash. What really put us in a deep, deep hole was what came after. Lenihan's bank guarantee which included Anglo at the behest of Brian Cowan.

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of the teachers' negotiations. Are you saying he shafted the teachers? Because most would argue his giveaway budgets were one of his biggest failings. I'd still take him over Cowan or Haughey.

 

[ernesto]

I'd still take him over Cowan or Haughey.

that's quite the choice.

would you like to be murdered by Stalin, Hitler or Mussolini?