bnp coming to Ireland (2 Viewers)

[Blackenedflag]

this is a guy that that has been running around orcastrating race riots you think his here for a good debate or for the respectability that come with the invite?

Where did you get this info? Where has he orcastrated race riots?

 

[Corm]

Being bullied and being abused leads to a cycle in which the victim becomes the bully or abuser. You have to when to stop the cycle of violence and that usually begins with realising it has to stop with *YOU*. Revenge is an ugly concept, and I've been guilty of doing it before as I'm sure most people have, but I try not to do it. Another time, another place, I'd be out with knives looking for nazis to stab or pigs to fuck rocks at, but that won't achieve anything. Nothing can change what happened but you can have a say in what happens in the future. Being filled with hate towards those who resemble people who've done you wrong in the past results in nothing but more anger and pain. It's good to talk about it because it can relieve tension and pent up anger, and its more productive than taking it out on the nearest nazi or approved 'target'.

About those cunts fucking pissing on that woman, I understand why that made you upset, but I don't understand why you approve force but didn't show any. I think it's good you didn't, but you feel you should have. Shouting at the perpetrators would be better than getting yourself and others hurt, but you didn't say in your story if you even went over to the woman and asked if she was ok. My point I've been trying to make is that maybe if people concentrate on helping the victims and trying to understand *why* people do this (as opposed to spending time and effort on running after the attackers physically everytime they make themselves known) then more can be achieved. Had I been in the same situation I'd have made sure that the woman was ok before running after the pissheads and perhaps ask them why they did it, but I'd avoid violence at all costs. I doubt handing them a flyer or trying to talk to them would work in this situation, but neither would trying to take them all on. The answer doesn't lie in having a vigilante gang, but in trying to source their compulsion to do things like that.

Its less looking for revenge in my mind, and more so in standing up with people who are the victims of this kind of thing and saying we don't condone this shit. And I think sometimes, not always, but sometimes that translates to hitting back. Everyone's familiar with the bully who turns quickly to coward once somebody finally hits them back.

And to clear it up, there was a woman and a man talking to and comforting the woman who was pissed on, so I didn't think it was necessary to, since I reckoned if I was in the same position it would just make a further spectacle of me and I'd just be embarassed? It was clear from my anger and what I shouted after the ignorant fuckers that I was in sympathy with her, and as far as I saw nobody else, though there were others standing around looking shocked, went so far as to even say anything to the fuckers in the carriage.

 

[the strange guy]

"I will defend anybodys right to say what they want"
so you defend his right to incite voilence and hatered .thats nice

I'd defend his right to say what he feels. Alot of things we say could be construed as being violent and inciting hatred.

im sure they only want surrport from working class youth ,or maybe they want surport from any where they can get it.the bnps biggest financal backers are disaffected working class youth im sure

Of course there are wealthy financial backers, but the BNP don't have a stronghold in the middle or upper class. They have a few rich sympathisers but the bulk of their membership is working class. But that isn't the issue. The point I'm making is that this debate is vasty different from a rally with hundreds of people armed to the teeth with this guy in the center giving a speech. This debate will not lead to that situation, nor will it lead to the BNP or the Irish far-right gaining any respectability. Let it run its course and they will come out of it looking like the idiots they are. Try and stop it, and people will be curious as to why this guy is such a threat and will be intrigued by he has to say. Any publicity is better than no publicity. I know you're read up on the Irish and the Turkish hunger strikers; the British and Turkish government let them starve in an attempt to make examples of them and instead they gained more interest and coverage.

this is a guy that that has been running around orcastrating race riots you think his here for a good debate or for the respectability that come with the invite?

Which race riot are you talking about? Oldham? Fair enough, that was lead by a white guy called Darren Hoy, but not by Tony Wentworth. Harehills? That was a riot against police by Black and Asian gangs over a guy getting beaten and arrested in front of his children. Bradford? Again, a riot mostly against police and property. The above riots aren't as straight forward as people would like to see them. It's not all orchastrated by the BNP but by small groups of people (white or not) who suddenly lash out all of their pent up aggression and frustration and who are soon joined by passers by. In the UK, the Asians and Blacks are finally 'fighting back'. What's been changed? The police and the nazis are bruised and wounded as are the 'good guys', but nothing's different. People still feel the same. In an ideal world, the police and racist neighbours would have seen the errors of their ways after a brick to the face and getting their gaff burnt down, but in reality, the violence solved nothing. Now they're even further apart than ever. What would you advise in this situation? I'm not claiming to know the definitive answer, but I do feel that an anti-racism by force ethos works the same as anything that's tried to be achieved by force. It can't work in the longterm.

Going after a nazi when he speaks in public won't solve anything long term. Community relations, communication and greater understanding between people of different cultures, on the other hand, will.

i think the way you just through the fascist tag on people so easaly shows your ingroance of the ideology that is fascism.

I think he meant a left-wing guy censoring a right-wing guy is the same as a right-wing guy censoring a left-wing guy. Censorship doesn't have an affiliation, it's something forced by one group on another and is, frankly, bullshit.

and just one other thing i find strange over the past few weeks people from all over dublin have been imprisioned,finded and had their right to peaceful prostest denigned /free speech denigned and i dont remember seeing any posts /solidarity from the people who seem to be falling all over them selves to defend the rights of this scum.good to see where your priorties are.

I think this could be a whole new thread by itself. The reason I'm not all that upset over the bin tax protests is because I think it could work. But let's just stick to nazis and using big words.

 

[Problematic]

"I will defend anybodys right to say what they want"
so you defend his right to incite voilence and hatered .thats nice"

yes I do, the point you seem to be missing or just ignoring is where do you draw the line, who makes the rules about what is ok to speak about and what is not. Who decides who and what gets censored.
Once we`ve established that the rightwing idealogues can`t have their say, what about the anarchists and left wing activists, but surely they are a threat to the good conservative majority, what they say is going to corrupt the very fabric of our society. No we won`t let them speak either. And it just goes on until all your left with is the center right authoritarian bullshit that you claim to be against.


"i think the way you just through the fascist tag on people so easaly shows your ingroance of the ideology that is fascism."

No it doesn`t, check what the word fascism means Byrneos, I think you`ll find part of the description is ....
" suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship" ... which sounds an awful lot like what you are proposing.

 

[subbuteo !]

Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnoes
this is a guy that that has been running around orcastrating race riots you think his here for a good debate or for the respectability that come with the invite?

sorry that was meant to read ... thats party....not..that that .


and as for the rest its been covered already.your just as bad ,no im not ,yes you are ,no im not...yawn

except for
qoute oly
"What would you advise in this situation? I'm not claiming to know the definitive answer, but I do feel that an anti-racism by force ethos works the same as anything that's tried to be achieved by force. It can't work in the longterm.

Going after a nazi when he speaks in public won't solve anything long term. Community relations, communication and greater understanding between people of different cultures, on the other hand, will."

i neither have a definitive answer.but some things have to be dealt with in the here and now the immediate threat as well as the long term bigger picture.
but as you don't really see him as a threat its irrealivent to you i guess.

QOUTE OLY
"I'm not all that upset over the bin tax protests is because I think it could work"......i know you don't agree but it was their right to protest not the subject of the protest i was talking about...sorry no big words for ya

 

[the strange guy]

i neither have a definitive answer.but some things have to be dealt with in the here and now the immediate threat as well as the long term bigger picture.
but as you don't really see him as a threat its irrealivent to you i guess.

The immediate threat is how people feel, not what one man says. The frustrations of thousands of people in Dublin is what is threatening refugees and immigrants, not this single debate in Trinity. You have to be able to look beyond what's staring at you right in the face. Stopping him from going ahead will not get your message through to an Irish racist who isn't even aware any of this is happening. Getting your message through to him is what is crucial, not preventing him from ever hearing anything else. The BNP are a symptom of the disease, not the cause.

Of course I see him as a threat. He is a dangerous man with some seriously warped views, but I'm sure people out there may say that about you or me. Preventing us or him from making views heard would throw the world into an even more deplorable state of censorship and control; and I don't want that.

 

[no_exit]

i can only help but wonder where all of you pro-censoring-fascists people were last thursday when an islamic fundamentalist spoke at trinity. oh wait, i forgot, it's really *in* nowadays to support people who celebrate the deaths of over 2,000 americans.

 

[the strange guy]

Queue rhetorical chants of 'Yeh!' and 'Remember when they bombed the pharmaceutical factory in Sudan!'. I can't believe that most of the pro-censorship crowd SLEPT IN on Sunday instead of stopping people from going to church to hear views which could shatter their little minds.

 

[subbuteo !]

The immediate threat is how people feel, not what one man says. The frustrations of thousands of people in Dublin is what is threatening refugees and immigrants, not this single debate in Trinity. You have to be able to look beyond what's staring at you right in the face. Stopping him from going ahead will not get your message through to an Irish racist who isn't even aware any of this is happening. Getting your message through to him is what is crucial, not preventing him from ever hearing anything else. The BNP are a symptom of the disease, not the cause.


oly i think ya know me better than to think i see this as a be all and end all solution to racism in this country.yes i see dealing with the warped views of the average man/woman on the street as just important .but you all ready know that.

Of course I see him as a threat. QUOTE]
and there was me thinking your just" some cheese eating surrender monkey."

 

[the strange guy]

You thought I was French? Fuck you, buddy.

 

[1000BC]

Of course there are wealthy financial backers, but the BNP don't have a stronghold in the middle or upper class. They have a few rich sympathisers but the bulk of their membership is working class. But that isn't the issue.

why isn't it the issue?
it indicates that the working class has some nasty elements to it - like all that shit that's gone on in Limerick lately is perpetrated by the working class - but no we can't slag off the working class cause then we're snobs?

if the BNP was full of middle class sympathisers then it would definitely be an issue to some people

 

[the strange guy]

It isn't an issue because it wasn't the point I was trying to make. I didn't want to stray from the debate in Trinity to where the BNP get their money.

 

[Corm]

i can only help but wonder where all of you pro-censoring-fascists people were last thursday when an islamic fundamentalist spoke at trinity. oh wait, i forgot, it's really *in* nowadays to support people who celebrate the deaths of over 2,000 americans.

Blah blah blah.

"Somebody else do it, somebody else do it!"

Why didn't YOU bring the issue up then, since you were obviously aware of it and we weren't?

I have to apologise, I actually had my fascist radar turned off for a few hours last Thursday, since I usually attempt to put an instant stop to any and all occurences of fascism the minute they occur, not just the ones I hear or read about.

 

[W.]

i can only help but wonder where all of you pro-censoring-fascists people were last thursday when an islamic fundamentalist spoke at trinity. oh wait, i forgot, it's really *in* nowadays to support people who celebrate the deaths of over 2,000 americans.

nobody here supports islamic fundamentalists, but if you pay any attention to your countrys foreign policy and imperialistic "culture" then you might understand why resentment amongst white irish teen males would be high enough for us to;
1. Not really give a fuck about your country being attacked.
2. Make bad jokes about something the USA has made very taboo.

 

[W.]

it indicates that the working class has some nasty elements to it - like all that shit that's gone on in Limerick lately is perpetrated by the working class - but no we can't slag off the working class cause then we're snobs?

You want to slag off the "working class" because of the actions of a very small minority. This isn't the first time you've said something dodgy like this

postcode doesnt determine it?!
Well generally speaking I think it does.
violent crime/crime against the person is a class issue
"working" class being the main perpetrators

You are a snob and can fuck right off back to the main board.

 

[treelo]

why isn't it the issue?
it indicates that the working class has some nasty elements to it - like all that shit that's gone on in Limerick lately is perpetrated by the working class - but no we can't slag off the working class cause then we're snobs?

what the FUCK kind of comment is that?!

"it indicates that the working class has some nasty elements to it"
- i've read that statement about fifteen times now and it's not making sense, i don't even know how to start arguing about it.

"like all that shit that's gone on in Limerick lately is perpetrated by the working class"
- what the fuck? 'the working class' aren't some gang that roam around shooting eachother. the fucknuts causing all the trouble in limerick don't represent working class people - (both families, incidently, are loaded) - yet you seem to be grabbing hold of the situation there and using it as proof of some long-held suspicion that the working classes are the cause of societies ills. did you even read what you wrote?

"but no we can't slag off the working class cause then we're snobs?"
- sorry, "slag off" the working class? do you have something you'd like to get off your chest? thinking you're a snob would be a big step up by the way. right now i think you're a class A moron and would dearly love to punch you in the face.*

*sit down face to face and discuss the issues.

why isn't it the issue?
it indicates that the working class has some nasty elements to it - like all that shit that's gone on in Limerick lately is perpetrated by the working class - but no we can't slag off the working class cause then we're snobs?

jesus, it's most hideous post i've seen on eirecore in a very long time.

sorry for going off the point of the thread a bit. couldn't contain myself. haven't even been able to respond to this properly but i had to say something.

 

[no_exit]

Why didn't YOU bring the issue up then, since you were obviously aware of it and we weren't?

if i'm not in favor of rallying against fascists in order to censor them, why is it my duty to inform those who are? you're the ones who want to be the censorship-police, not me.

I have to apologise, I actually had my fascist radar turned off for a few hours last Thursday, since I usually attempt to put an instant stop to any and all occurences of fascism the minute they occur, not just the ones I hear or read about.

but why wouldn't you protest every fascist? why let some get away with it while you'll go all out for others? what if, as a result of the guy who spoke last thursday, hundreds of young minds were corrupted and are now out bashing innocent americans?

nobody here supports islamic fundamentalists, but if you pay any attention to your countrys foreign policy and imperialistic "culture" then you might understand why resentment amongst white irish teen males would be high enough for us to;
1. Not really give a fuck about your country being attacked.
2. Make bad jokes about something the USA has made very taboo.

i have no qualms in admitting that the government of my country is fucked. that's not the point i was trying to make. i was merely saying that the reason i could see most punks not rallying against an islamic fundamentalist, even if he is a fascist, is because it wouldn't be "cool" to do something like that.

 

[W.]

if i'm not in favor of rallying against fascists in order to censor them, why is it my duty to inform those who are? you're the ones who want to be the censorship-police, not me. .

Who said they want to be the censor police?
That's just rediculous, people are debating free speach and whether preventing a nazi from having a platfrom is contrary to the idea, please don't blatantly miss the point just to throw a sly dig.

but why wouldn't you protest every fascist? why let some get away with it while you'll go all out for others? what if, as a result of the guy who spoke last thursday, hundreds of young minds were corrupted and are now out bashing innocent americans? .

That's farcical, and if you're so opposed to it then why don't YOU go do something about it - i couldn't give a fuck about islamic fundamentalists speaking in ireland because we already have an opressive religion in charge and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

i have no qualms in admitting that the government of my country is fucked. that's not the point i was trying to make. i was merely saying that the reason i could see most punks not rallying against an islamic fundamentalist, even if he is a fascist, is because it wouldn't be "cool" to do something like that.

Why wouldn't it be cool to "rally" against an islamic fundamentalist?
Those are your words not ours - most punks don't "rally" against anything, most are apathetic as fuck.
Again I can't see the point in opposing islam in a country where catholicism has a firm grip (although it's a mere shadow of it's former self).

 

[Problematic]

well there is more chance that the Islamic fundamentalist is going to get people on side here quicker than the bloke with the BNP. Its also a fact that moden Islamic fundamentalists have the more of an ability to create widespread death and mayhem compared to the BNP. So as she rightly pointed out why chose one for censorship and not the other.

 

[W.]

well there is more chance that the Islamic fundamentalist is going to get people on side here quicker than the bloke with the BNP.

People can relate to racism a lot better than they can to Allah.
At least where i'm from.

Its also a fact that modern Islamic fundamentalists have the more of an ability to create widespread death and mayhem compared to the BNP. So as she rightly pointed out why chose one for censorship and not the other.

A fact? based on what? 9/11?
I would consider the holocaust a relatively recent event, think the BNP wouldn't repeat it?

They're both as bad as each other.