Is the Irish Music Industry unethical/immoral to independent artists? (1 Viewer)

[Space]

Most of the cities with vibrant "scenes" have a population greater than our whole island so there's more market close at hand. People seem to forget that fundamental point.

 

[MilanPan!c]

I think one thing that mitigates against a 'scene' in dublin at least is the sheer number of bands. I dont know if this is just an irish thing - for example Ive never been in a city where theres the same number of musical instrument shops in a small area as dublin. (perhaps @MilanPan!c might comment?)

If theres more bands per overall head of population, then its harder to build up a general buzz, as every bodies brother/sister/cat is in a band, and going to see your the guys down the road play isnt somthing that excites the general punter particularly

so the hardcore audience for independent original music is limited to a small pool of people, most of whom are also in bands.

The only genre in dublin that seems to have managed to develop a scene to any extent imho (and Im speaking purely as an observer rather than a participent) are probably the DIY/punk and metal scenes (could be wrong on the metal), where there seems to be a general level of support common to certainly most of the gigs Ive attended over the years

perhaps one of the reasons the original rude boys built up a bit of a local following/buzz was that theres not a lot of original bands in ballybough/east wall? certainly Ive never come across them.

however, its 4pm on a day I started with a splitting headache - so quite likely Im talking shite..

Dublin does have an absurd number of music shops. And most people still can't find things they want and go to Thomann.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Most of the cities with vibrant "scenes" have a population greater than our whole island so there's more market close at hand. People seem to forget that fundamental point.

It's soooooo true! Part of Ireland's biggest problem is it's size. You can't really make a career as a musician just here. Well. Very very very very few people can. And most of those have no success when they try and leave the island.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Dublin does have an absurd number of music shops. And most people still can't find things they want and go to Thomann.[/QUOTE]


A whole other thread right there.

 

[washingcattle]

That's because they attract other drinkers to the bars they play in. People actually go to trad pubs to hear trad music, whether or not they know or have heard of the musicians. Have you ever gone to an indie venue without knowing who was playing, just out of interest? I've been playing in a band since 1987, and I've done that maybe 10 times in my life


That's not the venues' or promoters' problem - that's your problem. Some kind of well thought-out govt investment programme might succeed in creating a self-sustaining scene here, yes it might, but that's a whole different thing to whether it's fair for POD to not pay my shitty band for playing EP. And also - it's not a problem that a whole heap of people care about solving so ... well, you'd have quite a job to convince the dept of finance

(edit - but it's not impossible, y'know, and fair balls if you want to actually give it a shot)

I didn't say it was, I responding to what I consider redundant advise to "bang harder".

I think some people seem to have gotten the wrong idea with regards what I was saying. All most of us want is to be paid for gigs. The government scheme part was a response to how there is such a scheme in nordic countries and how it could be implemented here.

The other aspect of it is that there is such a fund in existence to help young artists it's called the arts council and guess what ? They aren't listening either.

As far as PR and marketing goes by the way, it's not something most musicians give two fucks about. I for one fucking hate it. To repeat myself again, Musicians should be paid for their hard work, that simple. The idea that bands ability to receive payment is based on their skill at PR is a reductive and somewhat morally bankrupt idea which I will always be opposed to.

 

[MilanPan!c]

I didn't say it was, I responding to what I consider redundant advise to "bang harder".

I think some people seem to have gotten the wrong idea with regards what I was saying. All most of us want is to be paid for gigs. The government scheme part was a response to how there is such a scheme in nordic countries and how it could be implemented here.

The other aspect of it is that there is such a fund in existence to help young artists it's called the arts council and guess what ? They aren't listening either.

As far as PR and marketing goes by the way, it's not something most musicians give two fucks about. I for one fucking hate it. To repeat myself again, Musicians should be paid for their hard work, that simple. The idea that bands ability to receive payment is based on their skill at PR is a reductive and somewhat morally bankrupt idea which I will always be opposed to.

I think you don't understand the relationship between art and money. Since the birth of art as a commodity, artists have had to earn a living. The idea that artists deserve money without anyone buying their art is ridiculous and not "moral". It might be nice. But it's not a moral issue.

Bands, like artists, that are better at PR, have easier lives. Even in communist countries, being good at self-promotion makes you more successful.

Success is seen, by the vast majority of people, as a sign of quality. That's not always right or fair, but it's true.

Museums are full of popular artists. The radio is full of popular artists - so are most music blogs.

Every single aspect of every single art "genre" is controlled by money, almost everywhere.

Writing? Yep.
Art? Yep.
Music? Yep.
Theatre? Yep.

And on and on.

This is not a moral issue; this is reality.

Most musicians I actually know in real life in multiple countries either know about PR, or wish they did. They want people to hear their music. And they would happily pay for PR if they could afford it. Their heroes do. The labels their favourite bands are on, do. They'd do it to if they could.

People that engage with the music INDUSTRY don't think that it's a moral problem to want to be successful. It's not either.

In 2014 a band is a small business. Many, many small business owners forgo pay for ages, sometimes years. They do it willfully to try and make a sustainable business. That's what a band is. Yes, it's art, but it's also commerce. Necessasarily. In fact many many many musicians are closer to artisans than fine artists.

You should consider that before you judge people and the industry for not living up to your moral standards.

 

[Kermit McDermott]

Jaysus, fair play to everyone for the long replies.

 

[nooleen]

yeah, is anyone reading any of them?

 

[Kermit McDermott]

a few yeah....

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Most of the cities with vibrant "scenes" have a population greater than our whole island so there's more market close at hand. People seem to forget that fundamental point.

Your point is valid but you are exaggerating slightly. Island's pop is over 6 million. Only London has a population higher than that in these islands and few other European or North American cities do either but of course our small population is important in all this.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Your point is valid but you are exaggerating slightly. Island's pop is over 6 million. Only London has a population higher than that in these islands and few other European or North American cities do either but of course our small population is important in all this.

Just to clarify Ireland's (the republic's) population is 4.6M. The UK's population is about 60M.

Dublin has about 1.2M residence.

London's population is close to 10M.

Germany has three cities larger than Dublin, and a fourth almost a as big. Berlin alone has 3/4s the population of the Republic.

Put it another way, the US state of Ohio alone has three cities larger than Dublin. And their combined population, just those three cities, is larger than the entire Island's.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Sasanach fuck, the island's population is over 6 million.

London's population is in excess of 8 million.
Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, Edinburgh, all have bigger populations than Dublin depending on what way you tally it but more importantly, London, Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, and a dozen other major cities are all a few hours drives from each other.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Sasanach fuck, the island's population is over 6 million.

London's population is in excess of 8 million.
Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, Edinburgh, all have bigger populations than Dublin depending on what way you tally it but more importantly, London, Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, and a dozen other major cities are all a few hours drives from each other.

Well if you wanna start adding cities in other countries to the Irish population, why not think bigger?

Sure the population of Ireland is over a billion if you include China

 

[Scientician 0.8]

I think you don't understand the relationship between art and money. Since the birth of art as a commodity, artists have had to earn a living. The idea that artists deserve money without anyone buying their art is ridiculous and not "moral". It might be nice. But it's not a moral issue.

Bands, like artists, that are better at PR, have easier lives. Even in communist countries, being good at self-promotion makes you more successful.

Success is seen, by the vast majority of people, as a sign of quality. That's not always right or fair, but it's true.

Museums are full of popular artists. The radio is full of popular artists - so are most music blogs.

Every single aspect of every single art "genre" is controlled by money, almost everywhere.

Writing? Yep.
Art? Yep.
Music? Yep.
Theatre? Yep.

And on and on.

This is not a moral issue; this is reality.

Most musicians I actually know in real life in multiple countries either know about PR, or wish they did. They want people to hear their music. And they would happily pay for PR if they could afford it. Their heroes do. The labels their favourite bands are on, do. They'd do it to if they could.

People that engage with the music INDUSTRY don't think that it's a moral problem to want to be successful. It's not either.

In 2014 a band is a small business. Many, many small business owners forgo pay for ages, sometimes years. They do it willfully to try and make a sustainable business. That's what a band is. Yes, it's art, but it's also commerce. Necessasarily. In fact many many many musicians are closer to artisans than fine artists.

You should consider that before you judge people and the industry for not living up to your moral standards.

I think you hit on the biggest problem here, the demarcation between music as a hobby (as it is and always has been for me) and as an economic/business pursuit. Part of the problem is, as you point out, careerism is frowned upon a lot by hobbyists or to be shittier, people who aren't good at doing their music as a business. The confluence of hobbyism, cultural/artistic expression, and economic activity is part of what makes the music industry here and elsewhere endlessly fascinating.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Well if you wanna start adding cities in other countries to the Irish population, why not think bigger?

Sure the population of Ireland is over a billion if you include China

He said the population of the island and I responded to that. There isn't as yet a Great Wall of Norn Iron, except in some people's minds.

 

[MilanPan!c]

I think you hit on the biggest problem here, the demarcation between music as a hobby (as it is and always has been for me) and as an economic/business pursuit. Part of the problem is, as you point out, careerism is frowned upon a lot by hobbyists or to be shittier, people who aren't good at doing their music as a business. The confluence of hobbyism, cultural/artistic expression, and economic activity is part of what makes the music industry here and elsewhere endlessly fascinating.

I didn't wanna use the "h word," but I wouldn't disagree with a word you've said. Lots of hobbies are hard work with no pay, but the rewards are happiness, etc.

 

[MilanPan!c]

He said the population of the island and I responded to that. There isn't as yet a Great Wall of Norn Iron, except in some people's minds.

Ahh I know. I just think, having promoted stuff on both sides of the non-existent wall, that the industry up there and down here are pretty darn separate.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

I apologise for calling you a sasanach fuck.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Sasanach fuck, the island's population is over 6 million.

London's population is in excess of 8 million.
Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, Edinburgh, all have bigger populations than Dublin depending on what way you tally it but more importantly, London, Birmingham, Manc, Liverpool, and a dozen other major cities are all a few hours drives from each other.

Its population concentration thats the issue - what proportion of that 6 million would have to travel more than 2-3hrs to see a gig in dublin?

 

[JohnnyRaz]

I apologise for calling you a sasanach fuck.

and on the 4th of july too.