"This is Nightlive" - the new Irish Seinfeld / Roaring Twenties? (1 Viewer)

[Yurn!]

this country is on it's last legs. we're fucked. and what have we got to show for the "prosperity" we've enjoyed? shit roads, shit schools, shit public transport, overpriced venues, pubs, restaurant, and no indigenous art/music/theatre.film scenes worth a fuck. we're all gonna be miserable and skint sitting at home with nothing but lucy cunting kennedy for company.

That's all i needed to hear. The truth.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Wait, is the solution to start ripping to shreds all the foreign bands who come over here poncing around thinking they can get away with anything and these gobshites will lap it up?
I think it is, and I can throw my full weight behind it.

 

[Hector Grey]

Wait, is the solution to start ripping to shreds all the foreign bands who come over here poncing around thinking they can get away with anything and these gobshites will lap it up?
I think it is, and I can throw my full weight behind it.

there is no point.

jeez, i try to get a discussion going and all i get is negativity and defensiveness. thanks for contributing. but then again, isn't that my point? i think the circular nature of this argument, and the tangential nitpicking that came with it, are the best illustrations of what i was trying to say. maybe i'm the only one that thinks ireland has become a cultural wasteland. and ro's right, it's all based on personal experience. so i apologise for upsetting the status quo. anything rte do in the future is shit. bands are only good while they are unpopular. glen hansard is a cunt for thinking he can win an oscar. are we cool?

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Well, for one, I think RTE make or support some of the best factual programming/documentaries around (on TV and radio), and with a fraction of the resources of the BBC.
I don't think comedy is important. So what if there's crap comedy on RTE?
So I think RTE, on balance, provides a decent service.
I'm not a hater.

 

[maims bond]

there is no point.

jeez, i try to get a discussion going and all i get is negativity and defensiveness.

ah give us a break. i did engage with this in a constructive way and didn't just make off-hand jokes that divert attention from the issue. If you ask me you have a bee in your bonnet about this and it appears to be something you have first-hand experience of. i didn't slate that TV show before it came on, and most others who did said they would still watch it to be sure it was shit. and it was shit. i feel like we're going round in circles here. you think we're begrudgers, i think we're wankers, game over.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Well, for one, I think RTE make or support some of the best factual programming/documentaries around (on TV and radio), and with a fraction of the resources of the BBC.
I don't think comedy is important. So what if there's crap comedy on RTE?
So I think RTE, on balance, provides a decent service.
I'm not a hater.

curent affairs and documentaries are what rte do very well indeed. If thats all they did it would be great.
Unfortunately they feel the need to do attrocious chat shows, very hit and miss comedy, and celebrity/reality shows as well (amanda brunker and brendan o'connor counting as 'irish celebrities).

 

[jane]

I think I see what you're saying there, Hec, and I agree with you. I mean, we need to be able to say when shit is shit, but we can't just be dismissive from the get-go and then complain when someone doesn't raise the bar on their own. A critical climate has to be part of a nurturing one.

Having been involved with/done shit in which I was constantly told how shit I was and how shit it was going to be, before anyone even gave me a chance, and being someone with some confidence issues, that made it really difficult. I was sort of afraid to try too hard in case it stuck out as anything other than same old shit.

And it was shit. Surprise, surprise. I'll admit it myself.

I like to think of myself as a frequently disappointed optimist. I want to think the best of people, and that is frequently challenged, but I'd rather be that way, and always pissed off about something, then to succumb to a climate of what I think most people agree (although yeah, not everyone agrees on the specific definition or details) is a constantly-validated negativity.

I always get in trouble and I already got told to fuck off back to my own country once today, so I'll stop now.

But of course, that's part of it. There's negativity AND defensiveness. Criticism is not a bad thing, but it has to be in the context where criticism is given as a way of helping someone to reach their potential. It's a nurturing thing. Like making it your business to see that talent isn't squandered and crushed under the weight of "Your music is shite". The incentive to try is limited, and a lot of people don't want to take the risk (some do, and that's great, but they don't associate self-doubt with creativity by accident) because there is just as much punishment for success as there is for failure.

I dunno if I'm making sense here.

I didn't see Nightlive, but I will admit that I rolled my eyes when I heard it was being done.

Also we should maybe re-frame the Father Ted thing, not as 'we're not a funny country because we didn't make Father Ted'. In fact, Father Ted is the fucking absolute proof that in a climate that nurtures, the end result is goddamn amazing. It *was* made by Irish people, just produced in the next-door country. Most Irish people who have found creative success have always had to leave before they could achieve that, not because Ireland was poor but because the nuturing climate that helped them achieve was to be found elsewhere. The thing is, it *can* be done here. But people have to want it and contribute to it, and stop trying to destroy anyone who has any enthusiasm or make fun of them for being positive or optimistic or trying something new and failing.

I had a conversation with someone recently and he was like, "I'll put you in touch with so-and-so" about something that I think sounds really exciting. He said she's a yank, too, and I said, "Oh, so I won't have to pretend I'm not enthusiastic? Cool." I know it's harsh, but it sucks and I refuse to really get used to the idea that I've found it more effective here to feign a lack of enthusiasm than the reverse. That's fucked up.

 

[evil bandit]

we're all gonna be miserable and skint sitting at home with nothing but lucy cunting kennedy for company.

What's wrong with Lucy Kennedy, she's just doing her thing I mean if you don't like her then why focus on the negativity

 

[jane]

curent affairs and documentaries are what rte do very well indeed. If thats all they did it would be great.
Unfortunately they feel the need to do attrocious chat shows, very hit and miss comedy, and celebrity/reality shows as well (amanda brunker and brendan o'connor counting as 'irish celebrities).

Irish TV broadcast news is also good. RTE radio docs are amazing. Things where no one is trying too hard to copy from elsewhere generally work. Go figure, you know? I do wish that they would drop the need for an 'IRish angle' in everything. If it would be interesting to an Irish audience, then that should be enough, but it isn't. I think that's pretty lame, too.

And remember JRaz, not all celebrities are famous.

Negativity is fine, and harsh criticism is fine, but what's missing is any kind of real community of support. I don't mean a circle-jerk because in a lot of ways, you've got these two extremes: the self-congratulatory masturbation circle and the haters. It doesn't have to be so polarised. Dublin especially is still very cliquish, and it's incredibly hard to get involved with creative stuff. I should have overcome my fucking terror and just joined a band like I always wanted to, even though I can't play an instrument and I sound like a fucking broken screaming machine when I sing. I dunno, I just feel like there's an attitude that suggests if you're not good when you start out, there's no point. I let that get to me and shame on me for it, but I still think it shouldn't be there.

 

[egg_]

But I'd slag Death Cab for Cutie too. I don't like them, and it doesn't matter if they're Irish or not.

Isn't this what Hec is pointing out as the problem? It's not particularly that we hate our own more than we hate anyone else, it's just that we seem to feel some kind of moral duty to be insanely negative about things that we don't absolutely love

Everyone starts out shit. Whether or not an act or a band gets good depends on their environment as much as it depends on their talent - negativity doesn't make a band better, it just discourages them. Encouragement, on the other hand, really helps people improve. Ask any parent.

thumped is actually a kind of safe haven for regular posters - we don't slag off each others' bands when they're shit, but we do praise them when they outdo themselves. Has our neglection of our duty to slag resulted in a glut of terrible bands on thumped? No ... and, in fact, some bands/acts who post in this relatively (for Ireland) positive environment have got better and better over time (rather than worse, like the cliche says)

Stop caring what's shit! Start caring what's good!

 

[maims bond]

Stop caring what's shit! Start caring what's good!

And remember, Big Brother is watching.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Isn't this what Hec is pointing out as the problem?

No. And if it is, then he's insane.
For example, there was a Luke Haines thread there a couple of days ago. I love Luke Haines. So I posted on that thread about Luke Haines and why I like him and which albums are my favourite. Now, I probabvly just wouldn't bother posting on a Deatch Cab For cutie thread, but I wouldn't shirk from making a throwaway dissmissive remark about them somewhere else, and you know what? Neither would Hector Grey, in some other context.

I'm going to do a search for your negative posts, actually. Watch out.

 

[BonsaiSuperstar]

i heard Hec said John Terry would miss the penalty BEFORE he took.
John Terry had never taken a penalty before, its not surprising he missed after that.

 

[GO]

Stop caring what's shit! Start caring what's good!

I'm want that on a tee-shirt.

Thats one recession busting slogan if ever I heard one.

Good one.

 

[Hector Grey]

No. And if it is, then he's insane.

i am, clearly.

i heard Hec said John Terry would miss the penalty BEFORE he took.
John Terry had never taken a penalty before, its not surprising he missed after that.

i did, i also said ronaldo would miss.

 

[jane]

This is a lame comparison, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

My long-time-ago ex and I rented a car and were driving around the Wesht. He decided before we even got into the car that I was a shit driver, so every time I did *anything* he would freak out and go, "You're going to kill us both!" and "You're the worst driver ever!" The more he snapped at me and told me off for shit I hadn't even done yet, the more nervous I got behind the wheel, until I thought maybe everything I knew about driving was actually wrong, and that all these years I've been driving, I've been doing everything in the most dangerous way possible. I fluctuated between being pissed off at being yelled at and then worried that maybe it was true and I was putting us both in danger.

I got sick of it, so I pulled the car over, handed him the key and said that he was driving the rest of the time because I was sick of being yelled at. So he drove and proceeded to tell me that in addition to being a shit cook and a tuneless singer, I was not allowed to drive, either. (Is it any wonder we broke up?)

The first time I drove a car when I was 16, I veered into a snowbank (very slowly, mind). I learned to drive properly when a bunch of us went on a road trip and the driver fell asleep, and I was the only one in the car who even knew what a clutch was. I had to get us back from rural Connecticut to suburban Boston and drive everyone to the train station, then drive myself home. I was like, "I can't do this! It's too scary and I don't have a licence and it's the middle of the night and we're lost!" But everyone in the car was like, "You can do it! We swear!" I even stalled out on a highway on-ramp right in front of a cop, but such was everyone's confidence (feigned or not) in me that I got us all home and before I knew it, I was a pretty good driver. I dropped them at the train station, and as I was driving home, it dawned on me that I was driving a car by myself, I stalled out in the middle of an intersection, and I got nervous again. Then I remembered that my friends swore up and down that I could perfectly well drive a car, and I got started again and made it home without being pulled over or hitting anything, even pulling the thing into our extremely tricky driveway like a pro.

I still had a lot to learn about the rules of the road and how to drive properly, but it's amazing what a vote of confidence can do for your abilities. Even when I stalled out, they saw it as a glitch, not as evidence that deep down, I'm only a shithead who is pretending to be good at something.

That is probably the lamest parable on earth. I apologise.

 

[Skrankio-X]

Maybe people will lap 'Nightlive' up? Bull Island is rightly held up as a paradigm of piss, but I know lots of people who loved it, and lots of people who don't know who Chris Morris is and would probably be pretty fucking nonplusssed if they saw Brasseye.

 

[jane]

One of the funniest things I have ever heard in my life was Jackie Healy Rae ranting himself purple about how Killnascully is actually hilarious and the jackeens just don't get proper culchie humour.

Every time he said, "Up there in Dublin...!" I would excrete my whole innards from the laughter. I tried watching it. I couldn't. Listening to Jackie defend it was way funnier. The problem is that Jackie is in on his own joke, and so when you try to parody that, you won't get very far. It's like trying to do a parody of Ireland's Own -- what would be the point? Parodying what's funny about Irish culture doesn't really work because it's already funny.

Also, I would like to point out that while the headlines are still funny, The Onion stopped being funny before this century, and suffers from some of the same problems that RTE comedy does. Well-intentioned and maybe sounded funny in production meetings, but actually doesn't work when stretched out for more than a few seconds.

Father Ted was funny because it was believable. Most comedy produced by RTE tries to be 'zany', or copies something from elsewhere, which means it's not really all that believable to begin with. The drama is devoid of humour and the comedy is devoid of the drama of characters we would recognise. Someone just tell us a story and don't worry about which section of the BCI brief it will fulfil. We can tweak it later. That's why Paths to Freedom was so good, I think: it was a story, it was close to reality, and it didn't go for punchlines.

Storytelling works better than jokes. No matter what or where, this is the case, but it's especially so in Ireland.

Where am I going with this? I dunno. I need to get some work done. I'm moaning about the lack of nurturing and I'm beign a lazy shit.

 

[killy kill]

One of the funniest things I have ever heard in my life was Jackie Healy Rae ranting himself purple about how Killnascully is actually hilarious and the jackeens just don't get proper culchie humour.

Every time he said, "Up there in Dublin...!" I would excrete my whole innards from the laughter. I tried watching it. I couldn't. Listening to Jackie defend it was way funnier. The problem is that Jackie is in on his own joke, and so when you try to parody that, you won't get very far. It's like trying to do a parody of Ireland's Own -- what would be the point? Parodying what's funny about Irish culture doesn't really work because it's already funny.

Also, I would like to point out that while the headlines are still funny, The Onion stopped being funny before this century, and suffers from some of the same problems that RTE comedy does. Well-intentioned and maybe sounded funny in production meetings, but actually doesn't work when stretched out for more than a few seconds.

Father Ted was funny because it was believable. Most comedy produced by RTE tries to be 'zany', or copies something from elsewhere, which means it's not really all that believable to begin with. The drama is devoid of humour and the comedy is devoid of the drama of characters we would recognise. Someone just tell us a story and don't worry about which section of the BCI brief it will fulfil. We can tweak it later. That's why Paths to Freedom was so good, I think: it was a story, it was close to reality, and it didn't go for punchlines.

Storytelling works better than jokes. No matter what or where, this is the case, but it's especially so in Ireland.

Where am I going with this? I dunno. I need to get some work done. I'm moaning about the lack of nurturing and I'm beign a lazy shit.

BANG. ON.

 

[MDR]

There are a whole mess of things here. In general I would consider myself hard to impress as I resent giving time to mediocre music, books etc. At the same time I always do my bit to be encouraging to people do artistic things - I buy albums, offer support slots, turn up at launches, give out my contacts, and do my bit . . . and many nice people do likewise with my efforts. But you can never combine those two perspectives: the selfish cold dead critical eye, and the human instinct to encourage worthwhile endeavour. Incidentally, a musician needs a good healthy dose of both of these things when it comes to their own work.

PS: Hec - this time next week you could be on the shortlist for the Choice music prize; spook, Dudleys, Jape and others likewise. I think that's a very promising sign that there is still an open mind out there somewhere.