The Smiths - The Queen Is Dead (1986) (1 Viewer)

[rettucs]

It is the fractious, profound, complicated dynamic of Morrissey and Marr.

THIS.

I'm a complete hater of how factions of fans pit band members against each other after that band splits. ie: Lennon-McCartney, Waters-Gilmour, etc. And while I think the Morrissey-Marr case was probably a bit more subtle, mostly because Marr wasn't really churning out stuff at the same rate as Morrissey, it was there.

I like the word 'fractious' here, and I completely agree. When I said I see this as a Marr record, that wasn't to belittle Morrissey's contribution. He's great on it too. And it could not have been as great as it was without these two conducting what is basically, all out war on each other, through their contributions to each song. Just, Marr wins out for me.

 

[YoungHearts]

I know what you mean. It is was one of those moments in musical history where all of the tension and regret and hope two people felt for life went into the same record, and it created such an amazing thing, often emulated but never bettered (in my opinion).

 

[rettucs]

I know what you mean. It is was one of those moments in musical history where all of the tension and regret and hope two people felt for life went into the same record, and it created such an amazing thing, often emulated but never bettered (in my opinion).

and in hindsight, there was a kind of inevitability about this being their final album. Maybe @travispickle might know the feeling out there when it was released. Was it a case that people expected a split after this?

I don't see how the band could have continued with such obvious acrimony.

 

[egg_]

Is there really no-one else who shares my regard for The Smiths rhythm section?

Hmmph

Why do you see it as a Marr record @scutter ? Do you have some insight into the making of it that I don't know about, or are you just saying that based on what you hear?

 

[travispickle]

and in hindsight, there was a kind of inevitability about this being their final album. Maybe @scutter

I don't see how the band could have continued with such obvious acrimony.

@scutter Well of course this wasn't their final album, that was Strangeways, and I'm not really sure if there was any acrimony in the band around this time; though that certainly came later. By the time they released The Queen is Dead, they were as big as they were ever going to be really. I remember huge excitement prior to it coming out and then when you heard it, you knew it wasn't just a good album, you knew it was a GREAT album; it felt like something special at the time.

 

[travispickle]

Is there really no-one else who shares my regard for The Smiths rhythm section?

Hmmph

Why do you see it as a Marr record @scutter ? Do you have some insight into the making of it that I don't know about, or are you just saying that based on what you hear?

Absolutely; a fantastic rhythm section. You could practically hum Rourke's bass lines, not to mention Joyce's drum patterns (well, almost!)

 

[rettucs]

@scutter Well of course this wasn't their final album, that was Strangeways, and I'm not really sure if there was any acrimony in the band around this time; though that certainly came later. By the time they released The Queen is Dead, they were as big as they were ever going to be really. I remember huge excitement prior to it coming out and then when you heard it, you knew it wasn't just a good album, you knew it was a GREAT album; it felt like something special at the time.

d'oh, yeah, shur I even said that myself in my essay earlier.

To be honest, I don't know how the pair of them ever got along. Or how anyone ever got along with Morrissey, ever.

 

[travispickle]

d'oh, yeah, shur I even said that myself in my essay earlier.

To be honest, I don't know how the pair of them ever got along. Or how anyone ever got along with Morrissey, ever.

Ah they were definitely kindred spirits and very much in tune and in league for most of the band's lifespan. Morrissey himself even said that Marr's calling round to Mozz's gaff to ask him to write songs with him, literally saved his life.

 

[egg_]

this record, to my mind, is one of the most important of the twentieth century

Ah lads. I think the world would be a better place if aging music fans like ourselves refrained from pretending that we've some kind of overarching perspective on the Importance Of Art

edit: ... well, maybe not that much better, but I find Pronouncements of this sort a little unseemly

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

I'm having my first listen now - the drumming and bass playing are both pretty unremarkable so far. It's the rhythm guitar that seems to give it whatever trace of a pulse it has.

 

[travispickle]

I'm having my first listen now - the drumming and bass playing are both pretty unremarkable so far. It's the rhythm guitar that seems to give it whatever trace of a pulse it has.

It's no Reign in Blood, I'll give you that

 

[rettucs]

Is there really no-one else who shares my regard for The Smiths rhythm section?

Hmmph

Why do you see it as a Marr record @scutter ? Do you have some insight into the making of it that I don't know about, or are you just saying that based on what you hear?

purely based on what I hear.

Theres so much going on behind the vocals, mostly from Marr. Like, I think most of the songs on this album could have much simpler arrangements and they'd still be great songs.

I guess it occurred to me because I'd been listening to Second Coming a lot too. That album was similar in the sense that John Squire played as if he didn't give a fuck about rules, and was going to show everyone what he could do. Marr seems more controlled than that, but for me his contributions rise above those of Morrissey's when I listen to the songs.

Another thing I'm not that sure of was who arranged the bass and drum parts. Seeing as Joyce and Rourke were basically hired hands. Were they given freedom to express themselves, or was everything on a tight leash, I wonder?

 

[David Kronenbourg]

Ah they were definitely kindred spirits and very much in tune and in league for most of the band's lifespan. Morrissey himself even said that Marr's calling round to Mozz's gaff to ask him to write songs with him, literally saved his life.

They were friends to the end. Read an interview with Marr in which he said they still hung out after the band broke up. They used to drive around in Marr’s car.

 

[travispickle]

purely based on what I hear.

Theres so much going on behind the vocals, mostly from Marr. Like, I think most of the songs on this album could have much simpler arrangements and they'd still be great songs.

I guess it occurred to me because I'd been listening to Second Coming a lot too. That album was similar in the sense that John Squire played as if he didn't give a fuck about rules, and was going to show everyone what he could do. Marr seems more controlled than that, but for me his contributions rise above those of Morrissey's when I listen to the songs.

Another thing I'm not that sure of was who arranged the bass and drum parts. Seeing as they Joyce and Rourke were basically hired hands. Were they given freedom to express themselves, or was everything on a tight leash, I wonder?

I don't know for certain, but I've a pretty strong idea that Rourke and Joyce wrote their own parts.

 

[rettucs]

I don't know for certain, but I've a pretty strong idea that Rourke and Joyce wrote their own parts.

I'd guess, based on the outcome of the court case, that you're right. However, that wasn't how Morrissey saw it, if his book is anything to go by.

 

[travispickle]

They were friends to the end. Read an interview with Marr in which he said they still hung out after the band broke up. They used to drive around in Marr’s car.

You would certainly hope so. Scutter mentioned this earlier, but It's always terribly sad when your heroes/idols/fave musicians/whatever fall out. I was reading that ramalbumclub piece on McCartney's Ram earlier, and the bits about the Beatles falling out as friends made awful reading, just terrible.

 

[YoungHearts]

@egg
Don't mean to be "unseemly", first time that's ever been put to me, and am only in my early thirties! And aren't we all ageing, all the time? I really do think it is an important record, nearly 30 years later, it still resonates, still finds new audiences, and is referenced by countless interesting artists who view it as a particular standard,and I did say it was only my tuppence, but I firmly stand by it, and am happy to make such pronouncements!

 

[travispickle]

had

@egg
Don't mean to be "unseemly", first time that's ever been put to me, and am only in my early thirties! And aren't we all ageing, all the time? I really do think it is an important record, nearly 30 years later, it still resonates, still finds new audiences, and is referenced by countless interesting artists who view it as a particular standard,and I did say it was only my tuppence, but I firmly stand by it, and am happy to make such pronouncements!

Had to laugh at "unseemly" hehe, how very Victorian!
That's @egg's invite to afternoon tea down the WC

 

[David Kronenbourg]

Unseemly is the type of word Morrissey would have used to describe pop music in the mid 80s

 

[dudley]

@YoungHearts To the Slayer thread with you! In for a penny etc