[Sunday Business Post] Irish music industry hit by downloading (1 Viewer)

[aoboa]

That's my point though. You said that 320 was OK. I think they're significantly worse still.

They're so close to cd that in a blind test of wav vs mp3 320kb LAME, true-stereo, no-VBR, most people (including me) can only guess which is which.

Where did you get the 320kb mp3s btw?
People were constantly recoding shit quality mp3s to 320kb so that they could get around restrictions on the likes of Oink etc.

 

[TenRabbits]

Is how I value milk relative to the means by which I procure it? Because I can take it from your doorstep if I dont believe the dairies are treating it with the respect I feel it deserves.

This is only a valid comparison if you decide to take a copy of my milk leaving the original as it is. The copied milk would probably be not as good as when it was in a carton, which as we all know isn't as good as when it's a glass bottle!

 

[TenRabbits]

I thought in rainbows sounded great by the way.. what was it? 160kbps or something?

 

[Unknown Convict]

when you're talking about Imaginary Property with zero reproduction costs you shouldn't throw around words like "theft" and "stealing".

not to bang on about it, or rather... to bang on about it:

In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.

Property designates those things commonly recognized as the entities in respect of which a person or group has exclusive rights. Important types of property include real property (land), personal property (other physical possessions), and intellectual property (rights over artistic creations, inventions, etc.). A right of ownership is associated with property that establishes the good as being "one's own thing" in relation to other individuals or groups, assuring the owner the right to dispense with the property in a manner he or she sees fit, whether to use or not use, exclude others from using, or to transfer ownership. Some philosophers assert that property rights arise from social convention. Others find origins for them in morality or natural law.

"imaginary property" doesn't exist, except in monopoly.

 

[billygannon]

Downloading music is an irresistible fact.
Music can always be captured digitally and therefore it will always be prone to being made available through the internet.
Whether or not this is right or wrong is irrelevant. It's going to happen.

The music industry has to quickly adjust to this new fact.

 

[broken arm]

Plus if MP3 is the only way you listen to music then it becomes your only reference point and becomes normalised.

this is proabably true in my case so.

I stopped buying vinyl about 10 years ago, primarily for storage and environmental reasons.

good point about 2nd hand record shops.

 

[aoboa]

Downloading music is an irresistible fact.
Music can always be captured digitally and therefore it will always be prone to being made available through the internet.
Whether or not this is right or wrong is irrelevant. It's going to happen.

The music industry has to quickly adjust to this new fact.

To argue that people should stop copying/trading music altogether is pointless alright.
What is worth arguing about is that because of new technologies people have come to the conclusion that all music should be free forever more.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

To argue that people should stop copying/trading music altogether is pointless alright.
What is worth arguing about is that because of new technologies people have come to the conclusion that all music should be free forever more.

i reckon there just needs to be a period of readjustment. people will continue to copy and download music without ever paying for it while others will (i reckon) come around to the idea of paying money to support bands they like, not necessarily because theyve downloaded a particular song or album but just to generally help them out and the method of acquiring the music will be irrelevant. there mightnt be too many more U2s or Rolling Stones but i think it'll be a better way of doing things in general.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Re: digital reproduceable stuff/10101010's having no value.
So if I hack into an online bank and steal their cash?
How does that figure into your thinking?
What if I hack into the online bank account of a major record label and steal virtual money that they've made from online sales?

Here comes the compression argument again then.. when cds came in people moaned and moaned about how poor quality they were compared to vinyl, now mp3s are shite compared to cds (which must make them like listening to a vinyl record with your head dipped in a bucket of shit then?). I wonder if when vinyl came in people complained that the wax cylinder kicked the arse outta it?

It is a fact that mp3s sound worse than CD.
Vinyl and CD is a more complicated one, but one can profess a valid preference for one over the other.
I don't think anyone could possibly argue that mp3 sounds better than either.

True but everyone has gone deaf from listening to songs that are mastered excruciatingly loud on headphones on MP3 player and can no longer pick out a lot of the frequency differences you're on about.

Plus if MP3 is the only way you listen to music then it becomes your only reference point and becomes normalised.

Right on both counts.
I suggest that you mp3 dudes pull out a good condition vinyl of an album you love, throw on some nice headphones or a good stereo and compare the two.
See what happens.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

.....there mightnt be too many more U2s or Rolling Stones but i think it'll be a better way of doing things in general.

Not to pick on you, but the whole "Everything will be better once we steal the major labels into the dust" assumption is... an assumption.
Nothing more.
It's equally likely that recording artists and those who depend on their will be fucked and things will be WORSE.
Let's talk about that possibilty for a while, hmm?

 

[TenRabbits]

Re: digital reproduceable stuff/10101010's having no value.
So if I hack into an online bank and steal their cash?
How does that figure into your thinking?
What if I hack into the online bank account of a major record label and steal virtual money that they've made from online sales?

If you hacked into my bank account and stole a copy of my cash that would be fine with me - as long as the original money still was valid. Copying a cd does not stop the original from being valid.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Not to pick on you, but the whole "Everything will be better once we steal the major labels into the dust" assumption is... an assumption.
Nothing more.
It's equally likely that recording artists and those who depend on their will be fucked and things will be WORSE.
Let's talk about that possibilty for a while, hmm?

i wasnt saying that at all, i dont really give a fuck about the major labels either way... theres good bands on major labels putting out excellent sounding expensively recorded albums, fair enough, let them at it. they've put in a bigger investment and have more at stake than somebody recording on a minidisc in their bedroom but they're in the business of making money and marketing and selling shit x-factor bands to kids, and when they put out good bands they are (it seems to me) trying to cash in on other markets and fads etc and again, i dont care what they do but if they do crumble to the ground (unlikely) then i dont care especially when they go around saying things like "Just €110 million was taken by record companies here, as the number of CDs sold fell by 10 per cent. However, legal downloads more than doubled in Ireland last year, with 80 per cent of all singles now bought online." and try to interfere with my internet usage

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Like I said, I wasn't picking on you, just using your point as an example of the 'assumption' I mentioned above.

 

[broken arm]

life's full of assumptions.

let's stop fighting and get naked.

 

[pete]

"imaginary property" doesn't exist, except in monopoly.

I'm just trying to distinguish between a tangible, physical asset (a CD in a shop, a bottle of milk on a doorstep) and a nebulous right to control duplication.

What is worth arguing about is that because of new technologies people have come to the conclusion that all music should be free forever more.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, but the current situation definitely needs a shake up.

others will (i reckon) come around to the idea of paying money to support bands they like

The suggestion of a flat rate "music tax" on broadband connections has been suggested more than once, something like the blank tape levy in canada(?).

Re: digital reproduceable stuff/10101010's having no value.
So if I hack into an online bank and steal their cash?
How does that figure into your thinking?
What if I hack into the online bank account of a major record label and steal virtual money that they've made from online sales?

Apples and oranges. That ones and zeros have no inherent value is not the issue, it's that they can be infinitely reproduced at no cost, regardless of what they are combined to represent. "Society" has decided that money is a fixed value asset to be used in transactions, but seems to be deciding that it doesn't see music in quite the same way.

It's equally likely that recording artists and those who depend on their will be fucked and things will be WORSE.

It's not like the status quo has been in place for all eternity. Things change.

 

[billygannon]

Not to pick on you, but the whole "Everything will be better once we steal the major labels into the dust" assumption is... an assumption.
Nothing more.
It's equally likely that recording artists and those who depend on their will be fucked and things will be WORSE.
Let's talk about that possibilty for a while, hmm?

Mp3's will always be available for free. It means that the potential for recorded music will always be available for anyone to download.
This basically totally fucks up the current means of living for people who make their living from recorded music.

What will become extinct are large-scale recording companies.

Musicians will survive this. As in it will always be possible to make a living from being a musician. Every society has musicians. And every society supports them simply because musicians are needed by every society.

As for recorded music - I think it could become like photography.
In that many people will have their photographs saved digitally - but if they want hard copies, it'll cost them.

 

[broken arm]

Musicians will survive this.

they could move to holland and live off the musician grants they dish out there.

 

[MDR]

Apples and oranges. That ones and zeros have no inherent value is not the issue, it's that they can be infinitely reproduced at no cost, regardless of what they are combined to represent. "Society" has decided that money is a fixed value asset to be used in transactions, but seems to be deciding that it doesn't see music in quite the same way.

Letters and punctuation marks can also be reproduced in endless combinations but that doesn't make works of fiction exempt from copyright.

If "society" has decided anything it's that creators of musical works enjoy exclusive ownership rights over those works, which they may licence at a fee and that anyone who unlawfully copies the work is in breach of the law - see the Copyright and Related Rights act 2000.

Lots of people doing something does not constitute a decision by society. People just want to continue to use stuff for free and are inventing elaborate arguments to justify that.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

What will become extinct are large-scale recording companies.

Musicians will survive this. As in it will always be possible to make a living from being a musician. Every society has musicians. And every society supports them simply because musicians are needed by every society.

and there'll always be others making a living off them who get panicky when their own income is threatened

 

[TenRabbits]

Letters and punctuation marks can also be reproduced in endless combinations but that doesn't make works of fiction exempt from copyright.

The ONLY reason that books aren't in the same situation as cds is because people like having a physical paper book in their hands. There have been plenty of attempts to market ebook readers and the like, all of which have limited market impact because reading on a screen, colour or not, is shit compared to having the paper book. Some would say this is just the packaging, whereas I'd argue it's part of the joy of a book. This is part of my point about the record companies making cd packaging so shit.