robot show (3 Viewers)

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

Sometimes I wonder what life's about
Sometimes I wonder why the lights are out
Sometimes I wonder why I like to shout
Sometimes I wonder, what the lies are about
Sometimes I see things I shouldn't have seen
Sometimes I wonder why, I'm a hood and a fiend
Sometimes I look at what I've become and cry
Sometimes I, get on that BULLSHIT and be ready to die
Sometimes a nigga that's yo' man might get it
Sometimes even though it's sweet, if you ain't wit it
Sometimes the pain is too much to BEAR
Sometimes it RAINS too much to care
Sometimes if you, don't watch yo' back it'll cost you
Sometimes you wonder, who would give a FUCK if they lost you
Yet sometimes the sun shines around the clock
But sometimes it's dark, and hell is hot

 

[Jimmy Magee]

Well ... I think so
the special why=how is this part of one or more larger things
the causal why=how is this a result of one or more smaller things
Is that right?

If that is right, then I say not that "Why is the universe" has no answer, rather that it's a meaningless question because Everything, by definition, is not a part of any larger thing (and the causal why is also meaningless because neither is the universe made up of smaller things)

I guess it's kinda like snaky says (or I think that's what he might have been saying) - you can link reason to reason to reason but eventually you get to the end. For people you can say I did this cos of this cos of this, and eventually we get to a point where you just say 'I like this' and can go no further. It's the same with The Universe - this happens because of this because of this ... but then eventually you run out of 'whys' and any sort of 'why' question stops being meaningful

Hmmm maybe your special 'why' is the 'why' that you ask when you get to the end of the line. Is it? If it is then I think it's meaningless question, just an oxymoron, kinda like 'What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?' or 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?'

umm...well...I wouldn't contrast the two whys in that sort of way, like one being putting smaller things together and the other putting bigger things together. However the gist of what you're saying is I guess correct - any purpose to the universe would have to be outside it, or something. As for the why you ask when you get to the end of the line - that's not the same as the "special" why, as you call it - I guess it is in fact the weird bafflement of which I spoke earlier (baffling precisely because when you ask "why?", none of the methods of answering we've outlined will get you anywhere). This doesn't just apply to why there's a universe BTW - I mean, why does the gravitational constant have the value it has? At the mo one could imagine us providing a new, more all-embracing theory that's able to explain this in terms of something else, but also we might get to the stage where we realise that we'll never be able to provide a theory that does so (and even if we do, there'll eventually be something else we can't explain), and the fact that it just has the value it has would be similarly odd.

So, in short, I think we're all alluding to roughly the same thing here. The biggest problem with these sort of discussions is getting the terminology right at the start.

 

[Jimmy Magee]

the 'why' that you ask when you get to the end of the line. Is it? If it is then I think it's meaningless question, just an oxymoron, kinda like 'What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?' or 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?'

Oh, this bit - no, I wouldn't say it's a paradox as such. It's more that we expect explanations for things, but in some cases we are (possibly) faced with unexplainable brute facts. Not a paradox, just not something our brain is comfortable with.

 

[Ex-User (1487)]

egg_, instead of trying to make sense of someone's else's ramblings, please, just make up your own... they're simply someone's opinion and like most opinions, are subjective... i guarantee if you put some time and booze into it, you'll come up with something much more entertaining... seriously! the only constant is change and if you can accept, love and live alongside that fact, everything else becomes unimportant. the deeper you grow your roots, the harder it is for you to move. change and movement are linked. go figure.


hi- 5 *schmak*

 

[Jimmy Magee]

egg_, instead of trying to make sense of someone's else's ramblings, please, just make up your own... they're simply someone's opinion and like most opinions, are subjective... i guarantee if you put some time and booze into it, you'll come up with something much more entertaining... seriously! the only constant is change and if you can accept, love and live alongside that fact, everything else becomes unimportant. the deeper you grow your roots, the harder it is for you to move. change and movement are linked. go figure.


hi- 5 *schmak*

But one can learn from other's ramblings, no? Of course this is just my opinion.

 

[egg_]

hi- 5 *schmak*

Wow I'm flattered
*schmak* yourself

 

[egg_]

I wouldn't say it's a paradox as such

Oh I didn't mean a paradox
What I meant was ... we can construct lots of questions that obey the rules of grammar and so appear to make sense like 'Why is five not equal to three?' or 'What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?'. However just because they make linguistic sense it doesn't necessarily follow that they have any meaning in reality.

 

[guy of the tiger]

Sometimes I wonder what life's about
Sometimes I wonder why the lights are out
Sometimes I wonder why I like to shout
Sometimes I wonder, what the lies are about
Sometimes I see things I shouldn't have seen
Sometimes I wonder why, I'm a hood and a fiend
Sometimes I look at what I've become and cry
Sometimes I, get on that BULLSHIT and be ready to die
Sometimes a nigga that's yo' man might get it
Sometimes even though it's sweet, if you ain't wit it
Sometimes the pain is too much to BEAR
Sometimes it RAINS too much to care
Sometimes if you, don't watch yo' back it'll cost you
Sometimes you wonder, who would give a FUCK if they lost you
Yet sometimes the sun shines around the clock
But sometimes it's dark, and hell is hot

You have such a lovely voice Spandex.
Why to duet a verse of "Who's your favourite guy on the guitar"?

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

You have such a lovely voice Spandex.
Why to duet a verse of "Who's your favourite guy on the guitar"?

that doesn't even make sense, dude
i wish ivan was here.

andrew

 

[guy of the tiger]

that doesn't even make sense, dude
i wish ivan was here.

andrew

Yeah, my eyes are burnt from looking at this goddamsonofabitch monitor.
How come your not in work?
Did you get fired for 'doing your walk' all the time?
or for pointing at girls with both fingers and saying 'owwwww!'?

 

[Jimmy Magee]

Oh I didn't mean a paradox
What I meant was ... we can construct lots of questions that obey the rules of grammar and so appear to make sense like 'Why is five not equal to three?' or 'What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?'. However just because they make linguistic sense it doesn't necessarily follow that they have any meaning in reality.

Sorry, I meant contradiction. Anyway I don't think this falls into that category, 'cos it's not a case of the question appearing to make sense but not having any meaning in reality. The questions is meaningful anyway i think, it's just that there might not be an answer. I mean, *if* it turns out that we can't explain the value of the gravitational constant, I don't see why the question "Why does g have the value it has" should be meaningful but "Why does G have the value it has" shouldn't - both are meaningful, it's just we can give an answer to the first (in terms of G and earth mass and diameter and the like) but not to the second. Thing is...odd...if you take g as your starting point and decide that IT'S one of your fundamental constants, then you can explain G in terms of g. But that doesn't seem as neat as the other way round, seeing as how g is only really useful in one place in the universe (i.e. on the surface of the earth), and cumbersome elsewhere (because you'd have to factor in the earth bits, and wind up with G anyway), whereas G is equally useful all over the place. Hmm...I don't really get this. Thinking out loud is great, innit!

 

[Jimmy Magee]

Thing is...odd...if you take g as your starting point and decide that IT'S one of your fundamental constants, then you can explain G in terms of g. But that doesn't seem as neat as the other way round, seeing as how g is only really useful in one place in the universe (i.e. on the surface of the earth), and cumbersome elsewhere (because you'd have to factor in the earth bits, and wind up with G anyway), whereas G is equally useful all over the place. Hmm...I don't really get this. Thinking out loud is great, innit!

Okay, I'm talking through my arse - if you tried taking g as a fundamental constant, you'd also have to introduce the earth mass and radius as further "universal" constants, so you'd have three as opposed to one. So this whole digression can be safely binned.

 

[Speed Racer]

..happened me when i was about 12/13years old - i got over it after a few weeks though.....i used to try and imagine total blackness/silence for a prolonged periods of time - in order to get the "what does it feel like to be dead" feeling...(I reakon too much Joy Division/Velvets had something to do with all that carry on...)

but if you`ve ever fainted, you know the dreamy/lucid feeling you have just before you slip into unconsciousness?It ain`t that bad/frightening is it?So that cleared it all up for me - can`t be that bad!

Now i go on holiday more and see as many gigs as i can!
Watch some Cheech & Chong and listen to some of The Cramps, and these symthoms should disappear...
Easy!

Later,
The Shrink with the crooked hat.

This guy is such a dude. Seriously. What a cool post.
.|..| on

 

[egg_]

Hmm the meaningless question thing is really just semantics innit?
Like whether we call it a 'question with no answer' or a 'meaningless question' it's kinda the same thing.

But maybe that's the whole point of this discussion? Highlights the difference between my hard-nosed, rationalistic worldview where I say "If the question has no answer then there's some flaw in the question", and all you woolly, artistic types who say "But it's such a beautiful question"


(This whole issue reminds me of something I read about Godel's theorem ... know anything about that, Mr. Mathematics?)

 

[snakybus]

it's at this point that rumpus usually starts shiteing on about Wittgenstein

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

Yeah, my eyes are burnt from looking at this goddamsonofabitch monitor.
How come your not in work?
Did you get fired for 'doing your walk' all the time?
or for pointing at girls with both fingers and saying 'owwwww!'?

i'm in work
i found the internet

andrew

 

[rumpus]

Hey guys!
My dad used to play pich'n'putt with Wittgenstein....until Bertrand Russel found out and proved my dad din't exist.

 

[Anne OMalley]

Re: On Not Thinking Of An Elephant

No, I actually PM-ed him the answer.

hee hee, did you actually PM him or was this a joke? as in "yo richie, i just PM-d you the answer..."

 

[Ex-User (1487)]

Re: On Not Thinking Of An Elephant

bah! i thought you were the funniest man alive there for almost 24 hrs. ah well... hang on, you might still be! see, if you're... ah never mind. you're funny in my brain and that's all that matters.

No, I actually PM-ed him the answer.

 

[Jimmy Magee]

Hmm the meaningless question thing is really just semantics innit?
Like whether we call it a 'question with no answer' or a 'meaningless question' it's kinda the same thing.

But maybe that's the whole point of this discussion? Highlights the difference between my hard-nosed, rationalistic worldview where I say "If the question has no answer then there's some flaw in the question", and all you woolly, artistic types who say "But it's such a beautiful question"


(This whole issue reminds me of something I read about Godel's theorem ... know anything about that, Mr. Mathematics?)

Well see I'd agree that the question prolly IS flawed, ultimately, but the problem is then to pin down just why it is flawed. If it turns out that there is no reason for certain things being the way they are, then why do we feel so odd about that? What does this tell us about ourselves? I mean, to just say then "Well some things have no reason behind them, get used to it" is a cop-out, because if we had that attitude in the first place we'd still be living in caves. In fact we wouldn't even have found caves, because we'd never have wondered why we felt cold and wet some of the time. If we're going to decide some things have no explanation behind them, we want a damn good criterion of same.

As for Godel - not sure how it relates to this really. Can you remember what aspect in particular?