RAG Party this Sat 10th Nov (1 Viewer)

[taubstumm]

that's one sharp pencil

newly-bought to make my tax returns

never used cos my ass was saved by niall and miriam mcguirk, allah praise them

 

[rotten tropics]

lots of the traits in the article could just be applied to anyone who acts anti-socially in any way.
the past accusation bit is a bit strange too,even if not convicted?lots of people have their lives fucked by being accused of rape aswell.
i remember seeing another pamphlet around dublin a long time ago that had some of that identifiable trait stuff and was just fucking ridiculous.this is a bit better though.

 

[nofunchee]

lots of the traits in the article could just be applied to anyone who acts anti-socially in any way.
the past accusation bit is a bit strange too,even if not convicted?lots of people have their lives fucked by being accused of rape aswell.
i remember seeing another pamphlet around dublin a long time ago that had some of that identifiable trait stuff and was just fucking ridiculous.this is a bit better though.

just read it again there myself. didn't get any dodgy buzz off it the last time i read it. what i took from the side bar in question was that it was attempting to describe a controlling and/or aggressive person. with the implication presumably being that rape and sexual violence is about power and control, which is a very widespread view, especially among feminists/pro-feminists. i thought that the implication was that you should use your best judgment but be aware of this behavior. but maybe i'm wrong.

maybe it could have been done better or explained more but i reckon people tend to get a bit loopy and reactive around this issue (not aimed at anyone in particular btw). it's certainly not surprising, it's a fucked up everyday occurrence.

i'd say far more people have their lives fucked up because of rape happening, than being alleged. either way you have to take it seriously if someone has been accused seeing as it happens a lot, it is rarely reported, it is even more rarely brought to court, and it is even more rare again that these cases result in a conviction. it's a messed up system of justice and to be honest you just have to use what you know and your best instincts - the side bar was about your own protection, not 'outing' people or attempting to deal with an accusation.

 

[rotten tropics]

i'd say far more people have their lives fucked up because of rape happening, than being alleged. either way you have to take it seriously if someone has been accused seeing as it happens a lot, it is rarely reported, it is even more rarely brought to court, and it is even more rare again that these cases result in a conviction. it's a messed up system of justice and to be honest you just have to use what you know and your best instincts - the side bar was about your own protection, not 'outing' people or attempting to deal with an accusation.

agree with you on most of this, i just think its a bit obvious to be written down, and maybe it doesn't happen as much as certain people would like to think, but people are falsely accused of rape. i just think its obvious that a past accusation is an indicator, but the way its layed out on the page it suggests to me that everyone who has been accused is a potential attacker.but it's only something very slight and i really don't have a huge problem with the piece.

 

[Janer]

In areas where I grew up (Ballymun/Inner City ) if someone pisses of someone they get accused of Paedo/Rape type accusations when obviously totally lies & malicious....so that written piece is well dodgy and inaccurate.

 

[jane]

Cheers, the party was deadly, got home at 7.30 from the post party party...
Working tonight.. argh! I'm sleepy now and have 9 hours to go...

I guess I find it hard not to take some of the criticisms personally, well, not the criticisms themselves but the way they're expressed. Of course we're never going to please everyone, goes without saying. We got a fair bashing from some anarcho syndicalists (i think) about out lack of class analysis which was expressed as snide remarks on an internet forum. That didn't bother me too much and was taken on board as a fair enough criticism and responded to in this issue.
I guess it's when you know people and they could talk to you or write you an email (I'm not talking about any one peron here coz the women-only thing I know lots of people have a problem with) but instead you hear back through the rumour mill or read nasty shit on the internet.
Owensie wrote us a long e-mail and I dunno if it got fully explained or anything, we thought long and hard about the involvement of men and have good well thought out reasons for being as we are. He came in and did a workshop for us about gender and socialisation too which i missed but I heard it was cool.
So yeah, I totally see where you're coming from with what you're saying about ailbhe's experience (and from my own experiences). It's a totally valid point but maybe some of what the article saying got lost in the rumour verion.
Of course people are entitled to say as they think, I just wish it could be done in a constructive way. We're only learning as we go and hopefully we'll have loads more discussions this year.

I was having a look at the new issue last night, and I really like the way the critiques have been taken on board and you've really engaged with them without allowing them to determine the direction of the magazine.

Obviously, I wasn't involved and so I wasn't part of the discussions about male/female involvement, and I don't want to speak for anyone else, but have any of the pro-gender-equality activist fellas ever considered starting a lads-only mag? I don't mean an 'I'm sorry I caused all that sexism' (i.e., a post-Ladyfest men's festival I read about a few years ago that seemed to focus more on men apologising for stuff than on actually talking about what it's like to be a dude in the 21st century West), but covering gender issues from a male perspective, within a safe, dudes-only space? Because non-hierarchical organisations by nature undermine the kinds of structures of power that are associated with masculinity, it seems like it could be really productive.

It would definitely be interesting to read, and guys are fucked when it comes to gender stereotypes/expectations, too. But then again, men and women *do* sometimes have different ways of communicating, and so maybe the same single-gender-discussion-space formula wouldn't work for dudes in the way it can for women (and obviously, it's not something that works for all women, either).

 

[broken arm]

Reading that article I get the visions of Imams preaching stuff from The Finsbury park Mosque.

not to harp on about that article but I just read one random paragraph beside those boxes...

Tom, can you photo the references for "research indicates that a disturbingly high level of young men condone sexual violence....." I'm interested in how a study of young people could pose questions about committing rape.....

 

[taubstumm]

not to harp on about that article but I just read one random paragraph beside those boxes...

Tom, can you photo the references for "research indicates that a disturbingly high level of young men condone sexual violence....." I'm interested in how a study of young people could pose questions about committing rape.....

ah here, buy your own copy

 

[broken arm]

ah here, buy your own copy

ah jaysus. the only place I can get it here is at F.A.G. club and they're stuff always clashes with, eh, life.

 

[Shorty]

Obviously, I wasn't involved and so I wasn't part of the discussions about male/female involvement, and I don't want to speak for anyone else, but have any of the pro-gender-equality activist fellas ever considered starting a lads-only mag? I don't mean an 'I'm sorry I caused all that sexism' (i.e., a post-Ladyfest men's festival I read about a few years ago that seemed to focus more on men apologising for stuff than on actually talking about what it's like to be a dude in the 21st century West), but covering gender issues from a male perspective, within a safe, dudes-only space? Because non-hierarchical organisations by nature undermine the kinds of structures of power that are associated with masculinity, it seems like it could be really productive.

It would definitely be interesting to read, and guys are fucked when it comes to gender stereotypes/expectations, too. But then again, men and women *do* sometimes have different ways of communicating, and so maybe the same single-gender-discussion-space formula wouldn't work for dudes in the way it can for women (and obviously, it's not something that works for all women, either).

.|..|

Well said. I think there was talk about it by Ciaran and maybe Darren in seomra spraoi when it was on the quays but haven't heard anything more about it.

And

'I'm sorry I caused all that sexism' (i.e., a post-Ladyfest men's festival I read about a few years ago that seemed to focus more on men apologising for stuff than on actually talking about what it's like to be a dude in the 21st century West)

YES!!! .|..|
This is what I was kindof hinting at in my american punks reference.

 

[nooleen]

i guess the problem is that sexual violence/coercion is something that can be endemic to many usually reasonable people and you can't single it out as a symptom or behaviour particular to any certain type of person. in all honesty i reckon a pretty big proportion of us are capable of doing things that we all like to denounce as nasty or wrong, and i don't think that it helps to make male vs. female divisions. maybe that's something like what oly was saying or maybe not; ideological gender division just makes me a bit uneasy, it seems counter-productive.

 

[Corm]

In areas where I grew up (Ballymun/Inner City ) if someone pisses of someone they get accused of Paedo/Rape type accusations when obviously totally lies & malicious....so that written piece is well dodgy and inaccurate.

Another water-tight analysis from the Janer camp.

 

[nooleen]

paedo.

 

[Janer]

But it's true, it's called reality.

 

[nooleen]

you're saying that sometimes people use accusations of paedophilia/rape inaccurately, therefore every such accusation is false?

 

[Janer]

Where did i say that? Of course not.
But the written piece in RAG surely said that if someone has been "tarred" with an accusation to be careful/wary of them.
I actually agreed with #51

 

[Corm]

i guess the problem is that sexual violence/coercion is something that can be endemic to many usually reasonable people and you can't single it out as a symptom or behaviour particular to any certain type of person. in all honesty i reckon a pretty big proportion of us are capable of doing things that we all like to denounce as nasty or wrong, and i don't think that it helps to make male vs. female divisions. maybe that's something like what oly was saying or maybe not; ideological gender division just makes me a bit uneasy, it seems counter-productive.

I think this is a very important point.

Whether it's as a result of socialisation, shrewd calculation, inherent gender traits, or whatever, as with many other things, women are just as capable asf men of any and all types of thought and behaviour, except that it takes different forms (often radically different forms). I've spent a lot of time & effort reading, writing & talking about gender and specifically sexual-intercourse-related issues with a lot of men and women over the last 4 years, and it's gradually come to light to me that whereas it is fair to generalise in terms of men being more physically coercive in regard to sex, women do the same things in a much more furtive and insidious manner. I'm talking about things like self-consciously manipulating people, encouraging and precipitating unsafe sex in order to gain power over somebody, etc. I think this is based on the contemporary form sexual power has for women, and also how men and women think very differently about and have very different physical relationships to sexual intercourse.

If these comments seem dodgy, remember that I'm not trying to provoke, I'm just trying to promote dialogue about issues that can't be ignored.

 

[Janer]

Thats #51!

 

[the strange guy]

I think the only reason to bring out a male-only zine would be as a tit-for-tat response to RAG. I think the fellas most rabidly against the women-only formula would never write for the zine anyway, with maybe one or two exceptions. The most important thing is - if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't support it and start your own. However, I'd disagree under the strongest possible terms that RAG is an anarchist organisation for the simple fact that it is unwelcoming to men and that this discrimination is a crucial part of the collective's identity.

I can sum up 21st century life as a guy in the Western world for you - it's grand; it has its ups and downs, its benefits and its shortfalls. I appreciate life for women is different. I don't think there's a need for a zine collective to explore male issues because I don't think it's something male readers would find essential reading. If it was an appealing read to women then they'd be misled by the articles simply because most men would be nothing like the little emo-boy who wrote it!

I think there's a gender (as well as genital) fixation in many circles. Should the word 'Cunt' be reclaimed or banned? Meh. All of this (zines, collectives, support groups) can be empowering to many and seen as absolute guff to others. Whatever floats their boat I suppose.

If you're the type of guy who worries about appearing too macho or feel the need to apologise to women for this sexist world you have no part of then need to lop it off, no question about it. I have no reason to feel guilty about my penis, no need to feel guilty for the doors it opens, no need to feel guilty of the history behind the penis nor to apologise for what anyone else's penis has done or has made them do. A male-only zine that explores these issues will be hilarious in the same way that a feminist magazine which explores the same issues can only be as serious as the Holocaust.

Changing the subject ever so slightly, I think that armchair psychologists need to stop talking out their holes when it comes to 'gender identity being a socially constructed phenomenon' (Stephen Doyle, I'm looking at you) and start reading up some Neuropsychology, Neuroscience and Neurophysiology so they can get a better grasp of how brain gender affects behaviour and thought.

 

[Shorty]

I think the only reason to bring out a male-only zine would be as a tit-for-tat response to RAG. I think the fellas most rabidly against the women-only formula would never write for the zine anyway, with maybe one or two exceptions. The most important thing is - if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't support it and start your own. However, I'd disagree under the strongest possible terms that RAG is an anarchist organisation for the simple fact that it is unwelcoming to men and that this discrimination is a crucial part of the collective's identity.

I can sum up 21st century life as a guy in the Western world for you - it's grand; it has its ups and downs, its benefits and its shortfalls. I appreciate life for women is different. I don't think there's a need for a zine collective to explore male issues because I don't think it's something male readers would find essential reading. If it was an appealing read to women then they'd be misled by the articles simply because most men would be nothing like the little emo-boy who wrote it!

I think there's a gender (as well as genital) fixation in many circles. Should the word 'Cunt' be reclaimed or banned? Meh. All of this (zines, collectives, support groups) can be empowering to many and seen as absolute guff to others. Whatever floats their boat I suppose.

If you're the type of guy who worries about appearing too macho or feel the need to apologise to women for this sexist world you have no part of then need to lop it off, no question about it. I have no reason to feel guilty about my penis, no need to feel guilty for the doors it opens, no need to feel guilty of the history behind the penis nor to apologise for what anyone else's penis has done or has made them do. A male-only zine that explores these issues will be hilarious in the same way that a feminist magazine which explores the same issues can only be as serious as the Holocaust.

Changing the subject ever so slightly, I think that armchair psychologists need to stop talking out their holes when it comes to 'gender identity being a socially constructed phenomenon' (Stephen Doyle, I'm looking at you) and start reading up some Neuropsychology, Neuroscience and Neurophysiology so they can get a better grasp of how brain gender affects behaviour and thought.

I wasn't cheerleading a magazine, Ciaran and Darren had been talking about a group, I'm not cheerleading that either. I agree with a lot of what you're saying in the above quote especially with regard to numerous discussions of privilege/guilt but I am more interested in a better understanding of gender and how it operates in our society. That can't be a bad thing.

And besides all that, why the fuck do you care if RAG is female only, it's not like it's the one barrier holding you back from getting involved in this group like all those other anarchist groups you're not involved in, but then again you think meetings are unanarchist?

Also, I don't know what Stephen's views are but who the fuck thinks gender is 100% societally constructed?