Police officer dies in Italian soccer riot (1 Viewer)

[broken arm]

With a cop, you can always say they joined with the best of intentions and then got corrupted, but they were still entering into a system that clearly privileges the rich over the poor.
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most people outside the anarcho-clique just don't see this. It doesn't factor in their decisions

 

[spuded]

a slap in the face to thousands of Americans who joined the army due to the fact it was seemingly the only viable thing for them to do unless they wanted to become homeless or start a life dealing drugs

see without sounding like a dickhead..to me that sort of opinion still signifies some sort of built in disregard for the lives of the iraqis that has and will continue to be lost, these guys aren't in iraq playing fuckin keepy-ups or shit. I got in a huge fight with an ex girlfriend of mine from the states whose friend joined the army to get away from a life of drugs, she said it had saved his life, but my opinion was and still is, why do people in iraq have to die just so this guy can live a drug free life. I guess it just shows that some peoples lives are valued more than others. She used to try pass it off as saying he didn't kill people, we worked in 'supplies'...two guesses on what he was supplying when i said to her to ask him...yep guns n ammo.

 

[Corm]

most people outside the anarcho-clique just don't see this. It doesn't factor in their decisions

That's true...what's the point?

 

[Corm]

see without sounding like a dickhead..to me that sort of opinion still signifies some sort of built in disregard for the lives of the iraqis that has and will continue to be lost, these guys aren't in iraq playing fuckin keepy-ups or shit. I got in a huge fight with an ex girlfriend of mine from the states whose friend joined the army to get away from a life of drugs, she said it had saved his life, but my opinion was and still is, why do people in iraq have to die just so this guy can live a drug free life. I guess it just shows that some peoples lives are valued more than others. She used to try pass it off as saying he didn't kill people, we worked in 'supplies'...two guesses on what he was supplying when i said to her to ask him...yep guns n ammo.

That's neither here nor there. It's not "a life for a life". The fact that Iraqi lives are being taken lies at the feet of the politicians and warmongers. These people didn't join to kill Iraqis, or Afghanis, or whoever. They joined to escape the harsh realities of their lives, and were sent to die in the desert.

 

[Squiggle]

With a cop, you can always say they joined with the best of intentions and then got corrupted, but they were still entering into a system that clearly privileges the rich over the poor.

I don't agree that this is so. The legal system, which the police are 'supposed' to support and enforce is not designed to be biased towards the rich. It is designed to protect individuals and their property - whoever they might be and whatever the quantity of their property.

In this day and age in Ireland, it is possible for someone to improve on the situation they were born into. Education is available freely to everyone.

You can say that you're treating people as if they're stupid, or presuming you're smarter than them, or whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that the propaganda machine in the States is beyond anything you can imagine. Growing up in a normal American patriotic family without having the luck to trip into punk or anarchy or left-wing politics, which is often just that, random luck (or a curse), then how can people be expected to believe anything other than that which they are told by their TV, family, friends and leaders every day for their whole lives? If you add this to the economic situation which forces people into the military, then you're not left with much of a "choice".

The imperialist war going on has nothing to do with those on the ground over there. They're victims as much as the ones they're fighting against. The atrocities and violence against children and innocent people are a natural part of war. That's just war. Many of these soldiers are young, scared, uneducated, and of course that's going to be their reaction. Have you ever done anything you weren't proud of, teasing people, laughing along with bullying, whatever? Imagine what that turns into in a war, where anyone around you might want to kill you, where they've already killed your best mates, and where you're told they're the enemy, all the time.

It's very interesting to read accounts of soldiers who fought in Vietnam in order to gain an insight into what's going on now. The difference is that many of them had NO idea what they were fighting for, whereas nowadays people think they're actually fighting for freedom and against terrorism.

Blaming the victims when it's the politicians who are the cause.

You make some very interesting points here. In the current "War on Terrorism", as was the case in Vietnam, it is important to watch the official language being used. The focus is emotional and emotive, it is an approach used in war. Dehumanise the enemy... justify the war using moral grounds (whatever it's real purpose).

I fully believe that anyone willing to send men and women to fight in a war should be forced to fight in the front lines and lead their army into battle. War these days is far too easy... sometimes it is easy to get the impression that the people calling the shots feel as connected to it as they would to a strategy computer game. The US are playing a real-life game of Risk these days.

 

[Squiggle]

I guess it just shows that some peoples lives are valued more than others.

Actually, this is a key point. The lives of the individual US soldiers matter just as little to their own government and leadership as the lives of the Iraqis.

 

[Corm]

I don't agree that this is so. The legal system, which the police are 'supposed' to support and enforce is not designed to be biased towards the rich. It is designed to protect individuals and their property - whoever they might be and whatever the quantity of their property.

In this day and age in Ireland, it is possible for someone to improve on the situation they were born into. Education is available freely to everyone.

The legal system is designed to protect property above individuals. And this is why it is biased towards the rich; it exists to protect property relations, which is expressly in the interests of those who "have" over thos who "have not".

I think that's a very privileged view to be honest. It's possible for some people to improve on what they were born into, but with exception of very few cases, it depends hugely on where you live, what support you get from your family, your accent, your skin-colour or religion, basically everything that defines you from within and without.

Actually, this is a key point. The lives of the individual US soldiers matter just as little to their own government and leadership as the lives of the Iraqis.

Exactly, and that's the crucial point. It's about wealth, power and privilege, not about the personal morals of the cannon-fodder.

 

[Space]

I don't agree that this is so. The legal system, which the police are 'supposed' to support and enforce is not designed to be biased towards the rich. It is designed to protect individuals and their property - whoever they might be and whatever the quantity of their property.

Given that the legal system was designed by the rich/ruling class I find it extremely hard to believe that there's any chance it was "not designed to be biased towards the rich".

Who owns the vast majority of property? The poor?

 

[Squiggle]

The legal system is designed to protect property above individuals. And this is why it is biased towards the rich; it exists to protect property relations, which is expressly in the interests of those who "have" over thos who "have not".

I think that that viewpoint is only relevant if you believe you have the right to help yourself to other people's belongings. The majority of people work hard to earn money to buy the things that they have... don't you think that a society that failed to protect that would rapidy degenerate into one based on taking, by force if necessary, from others rather than earning for onself?

I think that's a very privileged view to be honest. It's possible for some people to improve on what they were born into, but with exception of very few cases, it depends hugely on where you live, what support you get from your family, your accent, your skin-colour or religion, basically everything that defines you from within and without.

I don't agree with you. I've spent the last 11 years of my life working with people from all socio-economic, ethnic and religious backgrounds and have not found that there is any real descrimination. If you know your stuff, do your work honestly and have the right attitude there is nothing to prevent anyone from succeeding.

Exactly, and that's the crucial point. It's about wealth, power and privilege, not about the personal morals of the cannon-fodder.

But it is not about individual wealth... it is about corporate interests and pressure from 'interest' groups. That wouldn't be an issue if there was not government corruption... but there are legal ways of combatting that corruption... provided people make sure that they are educated and aware. Unfortunately the American people, more than most, are far too easily distracted by smoke and mirrors.

 

[jane]

This is ridiculous. People who claim to be anti-death penalty and anti-war celebrating the death of a human being? Insane. And JANER, you're a fucking pro-lifer, but you celebrate the deaths of American soldiers? Just because someone mourns their deaths doesn't mean they condone their actions or celebrate the slaughter of Iraqis. The tragedy of war is that it kills dickheads and decent folk pretty indiscriminately, and that if you value human life in any real way, you can't actually 'pick a side'. It's not like sports: you don't pick a team and root for them. Because people fucking die.

But just because someone is a total fucking dickhead, I don't believe they deserve to die. Why? Because I don't believe it is my place to decide whose life is of sufficient value, no matter where that person comes from or what they believe. Neither should you, JANER. But I'm not all that surprised that someone who believes he has a right to tell a woman what to do with her body would also believe it is up to him to place value on human life. So essentially, you believe that women should be forced to have babies so that they can grow up enough for you to judge their value on this earth?

You are a fucking despicable human being to celebrate the deaths of people simply based on their nationality. Fuck you, JANER, you offensive cunt. It's no surprise. Wouldn't you be, like super conflicted, though, if you looked up one of them American soldiers' deaths and found he had a big fucking Cockney Rejects tattoo?

Could you also do out an equation that shows what income level and background someone has to come from before his or her choice to join the army is considered to have been out of desperation, rather than opportunity, and thus, a life perhaps less worth celebrating? If not, I can ask an actuary to do one or something. As far as I can tell, your attitude is no different from the US Government's attitude, so congratulations: you've got more in common with Donald Rumsfeld than you do with most people on the actual left.

Corm, I don't agree with you about the cops thing, though I understand where you're coming from, and that you are really speaking from your own experiences. But you have a good point about the soldiers.

I'm saddened but not surprised that people who are supposedly anti-war would celebrate the deaths of anyone, regardless of their stand. Because how can you be anti-war and yet value human life so little? I'm anti-war because war kills people dead. The end. Because when we reduce human lives to numbers of casualties, we actually ignore people's humanity entirely. I don't want to see Americans killed, and frankly, I wouldn't dare reduce it to a judgement where I only felt sad if someone joined the army out of necessity.

And by the way, a lot of the people on the front lines would have been in the reserves, and the recruiting for the reserves is a whole "Weekend Warrior" thing, where you're told that all you do is run around the woods one weekend a month and then you get money for college. They were never supposed to be sent in first. You usually send the active troops first, but the first ones sent in were the least to expect it. In fact, the reserves is what you used to sign up for just to kind of take the government for a ride. You knew you'd never end up in active duty, and it was like free money for going on weekend trips.


I just find it a little bit sickening that for people who apparently believe in justice and equality, you're so quick to judge others. Just because people technically have access to information, or just because anarchist fanzines are freely available doesn't mean people who don't read them and learn about why all coppers are bastards deserve to die.

 

[jane]

Unfortunately the American people, more than most, are far too easily distracted by smoke and mirrors.

Why do you say this? Seriously. After nine years in Ireland, I can honestly say from experience that I see no more or no less delusion in the US than I do in Ireland. It might not be about the same things, but it's there all the same. The bottom line is that collective delusion is what allows a society to survive. There is nothing about American nationality that makes us any more prone than anyone else.

It's just that it's a really cool and popular thing to say that Americans are either warmongering flag-wavers or too stupid to understand that they're being lied to, which is just a really unhelpful set of generalisations.

 

[pete]

Sometimes generalisations exist for a reason. Speaking from personal experience, you're far more likely to see the national flag on display on private property in America than in any other country I've ever visited. That doesn't automatically equate to "war-mongering"... but "flag waving"? Most definitely.

ps celebrating anyones death is fucked up.

 

[spuded]

some good points made in all the above and believe me I don't celebrate the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq but I do reserve the right to not be particularly upset by it if they are......

 

[Squiggle]

Why do you say this? Seriously. After nine years in Ireland, I can honestly say from experience that I see no more or no less delusion in the US than I do in Ireland. It might not be about the same things, but it's there all the same. The bottom line is that collective delusion is what allows a society to survive. There is nothing about American nationality that makes us any more prone than anyone else.

It's just that it's a really cool and popular thing to say that Americans are either warmongering flag-wavers or too stupid to understand that they're being lied to.

Literacy figures in the United States indicate that only a relatively low percentage of adults read at the highest level.

between 21% and 23% of American adults are functioning at the lowest level. This is approximately 40 to 44 million people. At most, people at Level 1 are able to perform tasks involving “brief, uncomplicated text,” such as totaling the entry on a bank deposit slip or locating information in a short news article, but many do so with difficulty. Others are unable to do so at all.

An additional 25 to 28% of the participants, representing 50 million American adults, are functioning at the Level 2. Those at this level have skills that the Department of Education describes as “more varied” than those at Level 1 but “still quite limited.” They are able to locate information in a text, locate a particular intersection on a map, or determine the difference in price of two items. However, they have “considerable difficulty” carrying out tasks requiring them to use long texts or do 2-step calculations. Source http://americanliteracy.com/ALC1/literacy_figures.htm

Even taking the lowest figures this indicates that 46% of the adult population are either unable to, or would struggle to, read a newspaper, critical account or history book. This would effectively mean that this 46% of the population would be reliant on television or radio as a source of information.

Perhaps you do not agree, but I feel that Network News channels, and broadcasting in general, in the United States has shown a tendancy to support the cause of corporate and government interests. I certainly feel that they tend to concentrate on the emotive and patriotic. There have been several examples given here of "mistakes" made by tv journalists which would certainly influence those relying on such "journalism" for their knowledge of current affairs. The Osama/Obama incident is one such.

 

[La La]

/wonders if Jane would look good in suspenders+stockings as she rants.

and with that, it was clear that Jane was the clear winner.

Janer, cop on.

 

[jane]

Sometimes generalisations exist for a reason. Speaking from personal experience, you're far more likely to see the national flag on display on private property in America than in any other country I've ever visited. That doesn't automatically equate to "war-mongering"... but "flag waving"? Most definitely.

ps celebrating anyones death is fucked up.

Yeah, but there are a lot of people who display the flag without really thinking about it. I notice the flags in the US a lot more now that I've been away a long time, and they creep me out, but really, they're just a part of the American landscape, often without any consideration of what they mean. Sort of like how Ireland is full of religious symbols and most people are so used to them they take no notice. I mean, we had a flag hanging outside our house when I was a teenager just because it was part of the whole 'historic home look' (despite being totally historically inaccurate), but everyone in my family is and always has been ardently anti-war and pro-criticising-the-government, and definitely in favour of the right to burn the fucker. I wouldn't fly a flag at my own house, and I wouldn't really like to have one outside my window, but that's because it weirds me out in a way it didn't used to.

By 'flag waving' I mean that whole segment of the population which does certainly exist, the sort where they actively give a crap about some outmoded idea of 'America' that people should somehow be willing to die for. Yeah, that exists, but there are certainly things that are just as deluded about Irish society. I'm just kind of tired of people thinking that they can make statements about America because they know a few Americans and have been on holidays there, and yet I can't make any comment about Ireland because I'm not actually Irish by birth, only here nine bloody years. And I take offence to the idea that on a forum where people claim to be for equality and fairness that it's still okay to say things like, "Americans are stupider than everyone else" or "Americans deserve to die." I mean, I was just on a DART from Blackrock to Lansdowne Rd, chock full of people on their way to the rugby. If you want proof that Americans aren't the only deluded self-satisfied, smug cuntbags on the planet, just hop on the DART after the match.

 

[Squiggle]

"Americans are stupider than everyone else"

This is most certainly not what I was saying. Americans are being deliberately misled and misinformed - unfortunately many of them do not have access to an alternative opinion that would allow them to make their own choice about what they believe in.

 

[Buzzo]

Literacy figures in the United States indicate that only a relatively low percentage of adults read at the highest level.

Last I heard, over a quarter of the Irish adult population are functionally illiterate. Pair this with language barriers for non-native speakers and I can't imagine the difference is too remarkable.

 

[Squiggle]

Last I heard, over a quarter of the Irish adult population are functionally illiterate. Pair this with language barriers for non-native speakers and I can't imagine the difference is too remarkable.

At present we have a slightly less biased media - but you are right... that will change.

 

[jane]

Literacy figures in the United States indicate that only a relatively low percentage of adults read at the highest level.



Even taking the lowest figures this indicates that 46% of the adult population are either unable to, or would struggle to, read a newspaper, critical account or history book. This would effectively mean that this 46% of the population would be reliant on television or radio as a source of information.

Perhaps you do not agree, but I feel that Network News channels, and broadcasting in general, in the United States has shown a tendancy to support the cause of corporate and government interests. I certainly feel that they tend to concentrate on the emotive and patriotic. There have been several examples given here of "mistakes" made by tv journalists which would certainly influence those relying on such "journalism" for their knowledge of current affairs. The Osama/Obama incident is one such.

But literacy figures give literacy rates. Just because more Irish people can read a newspaper doesn't mean they necessarily go any further than the Sun or the Star. And it's not like the American literacy rate is down to Americans somehow being dumber than everyone else, it's the fact that the poverty rates in the US are appallingly high. If they're illiterate, it's at least partly because they're poor, not deliberately ignorant. There are plenty of deliberately ignorant people out there, and many of them are remarkably well-read.

Yeah, Fox news is a load of balls, and it's insane, but that's because media here is totally different from media in the US. It's always been commercial, but if you look at something non-commercial and non-profit like NPR (which, yeah, is not what the majority of the public actually listen to), you can do a bit more of a comparison. There's actually no way to compare like with like because American media is so much different from European media.

And yes, I do think the state of American media is terrible, but that doesn't mean that Americans are dumber than the rest of the world.


Thanks for this de-rep comment, by the way, JANER: "fuck the usa warmongers / Janerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"