Police officer dies in Italian soccer riot (2 Viewers)

[sexypornolady]

Squiggle, this might help understand where some of us are coming from - http://www.infoshop.org/iportal/cops.php .

Jane, I can understand what you're saying, but I just have no sympathy for someone who joins the force and puts themselves in that position. And I certainly don't agree that 'if more decent people became cops, there'd be proporionately fewer crappy cops' - the nature of the job changes them; some might have joined to protect the community or whatever but then end up arresting people for ludicrous things just to keep their tally up. I've got a book called 'Bent Cop' where a surprising amount admit this in interview. There's been far too much deaths in custody, abuse of power, oppression of minorities - not to mention their main role as boot boys/girls of the state - for me to shed any tears when I hear of one's misfortune, the same way I wouldn't feel sorry for a nazi or a paedophile. I don't actually wish all of them dead, that was a mixture of banter and trying to wind up the Lifestyle lurkers, but I do wish they didn't exist and I have no qualms about undermining them in any way possible.

God, you're so immature.

 

[pete]

http://www.thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=718136#post718136

so what you're saying is he "...never said anything even vaguely along the lines of applauding their murder or having a tally." apart from when he did, then retracted when called on it?

fair enough.

 

[Shorty]

So you applaud the murder of a member of my family? Some cunt who deprived both me and my brother of ever meeting our paternal grandfather, because he/she serves your political agenda? Because -- regardless of the situation -- the murder of a cop for any reason just increases your tally? How is that any different from what corrupt cops do?

Where does Malarky do or say that? What's the proper term for attributing views and opinions to people that they don't actually hold and then attacking those? Hmmm ...

I'm going to try to be civil in responding to this and it's not like I agree with Malarky as previously (in the thread on anti-fascism) he as well as others have refused to (or perhaps were unable to) actually justify or explain their views and understandings, resorting to a "fuck you indie wanker I don't have to explain myself, I'm anarcho as fuck" attitude so prevalent here.
(in the example of the anti-fascism thread, Tom, who actually considers himself anarchist and is probably more well read on the subject than most here was confronted in this way) Not that some of the stupid and continuous applying of non sensical views and opinions to people on here by general board users is much better.

Or do you consider it more productive to just throw burning bricks through the window of the copshop, and suggest that somehow the hitchhiker who murdered my grandfather was performing a public service? The fact is, we have no idea if his murder had anything at all with him being a cop. We're not even 100% sure he was one -- that's how little we know about him. In a weird way, the whole thing feels very distant from me, but every so often, I do get a bit angry that some murderer deprived me of a chance to meet my grandfather.

Congrats on the use of emotive material for your argument! And your use of rhetorical questions as a method of attributing views to people. When you say not 100% sure he even was one, are you refering to the murderer being a hitchhiker or your grandfather being a cop? Plus I still fail to see the relevance of this to the discussion of the role of the police or the fact that Malarky isn't justifying the killing of cops ...

Further, this discussion of deterrence and exactly the example of murder (as a crime of passion) shows the effect of the police as a means of deterrence. And sorry about my further confusion, but doesn't the word prevent imply something that happens before an event or occurence, not someone you call during or after something has happened. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of crime is reducible down to factors of economic inequality and related to property. Anti-social behaviour is another discussion in itself.

I think this article might be a better starting point for discussion if this thread is actually going to attempt to go off on or return to a usable tangent.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66410

.

 

[Shorty]

so what you're saying is he "...never said anything even vaguely along the lines of applauding their murder or having a tally." apart from when he did, then retracted when called on it?

fair enough.

No he said he wouldn't shed a tear, ambivalence isn't the same as applauding.

 

[pete]

No he said he wouldn't shed a tear, ambivalence isn't the same as applauding.

Can you read?

"Lets have some more of this..."; "...a bit of that..."; "...fucking loads of this..."; "...a wee bit of this..."; "...and plenty of that...".

 

[classic seanc]

I think some violence is really really great, but other violence is like, totally wrong, and should be met with violence.

 

[Buzzo]

Crime is a very broad term. Smoking cannabis is a crime, sexual assault is also a crime but they are by no means the same thing. The police serve as protectors of the state primarily, I would argue, and maintainers of the status quo. Depending upon where you live in the world, and what your social status or position is, they can be interpreted as crime stoppers, keepers of the peace, servants of the community or forces of oppression, guardians of the power elite etc.


Power is corrupting, see the stanford prison experiment as an example. Put a uniform on someone, give them a stick and they may even surprise themselves as to how malevolent they can become. Take nazi Germany as another example if you're not convinced.

Here's something interesting: from the Report to the Irish Government on the Visit to Ireland carried out by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhumane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment in 1993: "persons held in certain police establishments in Ireland, and more particularly in Dublin, run not inconsiderable risk of physically ill-treated".

All good points you made SPP, and I think the fact that police are capable of corruption and exploitation are accepted both at an official level and by the general public. I'd like to know what people offer as an alternative is all. I'm a demanding prick, and while I think vocalising criticisms is important, offering solutions is even rapider.

And to vaguely stick to the point.- I wouldn't celebrate the death of a radomer in another country that I don't know simply because he's in a profession I don't respect.

 

[nooleen]

so what you're saying is he "...never said anything even vaguely along the lines of applauding their murder or having a tally." apart from when he did, then retracted when called on it?

fair enough.

no, i'm saying he "...never said anything even vaguely along the lines of applauding their murder or having a tally", with no qualifying follow-up.

 

[sexypornolady]

Spare a thought for the priests everybody.

 

[nooleen]

they do good work.

 

[Malarky]

So you applaud the murder of a member of my family? Some cunt who deprived both me and my brother of ever meeting our paternal grandfather, because he/she serves your political agenda?

First off, stop taking it like its a personal affront to you. I'm not dancing around laughing because your paternal grandfather is dead. Lets get some perspective on this. The thread started about some random policeman in Italy. I can't help the way I feel; I'm not rightly fussed that he's dead. I have no love for the police force in any country. I've never had a good dealing with a cop - in fact they've caused me considerable hardship in the past. None of my friends have ever had good dealings with cops - some of them have lost their liberty for considerable periods of time after being fitted up. You can't be blind to the systematic abuse of power that has gone on since their formation. Not just the obvious things like planting evidence, making up statements, taking bribes, hassling innocent people but beating people to make a false confession, brutality on protests, killing them in custody, institutional racism, disproportionately targeting minorities. These aren't just one or two bent cops, its endemic to the organisation. And those that don't join in mostly cover up for the rest. But I also look at it from an anarchist perspective - they fit in with the hierarchy of the state in a triumverate of legislators and prisons to keep capitalist society ticking over; the bias is always to protect the haves from the have-nots irrespective of whether they also give directions or direct traffic. What's not to hate?

What do you propose replaces policing as we know it? ... So why just undermine what's there because you read a book where a cop said all cops were corrupt?

You can't just pick one narrow aspect of society that isn't working and ask how you'd fix it. You have to take society as a whole, as the whole thing isn't working, and ask what you'd rather have instead. I'd quite like to see society evolve into a network of autonomously run self-managed communities or neighbourhoods, where community pressure and responsibility is brought to bear, and where doing away with private property (not to be confused with possessions) and currency will eradicate most crimes of avarice. The Anarchy FAQ goes into it in more detail - http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secI5.html#seci58

Or do you consider it more productive to just throw burning bricks through the window of the copshop, and suggest that somehow the hitchhiker who murdered my grandfather was performing a public service?

Are you confusing me with someone else?

The fact is, we have no idea if his murder had anything at all with him being a cop. We're not even 100% sure he was one --

Errrr.....

 

[Shorty]

Can you read?

Yes, I can read quite well, but those quotes and pictures are taken from another thread, aren't they?

 

[nooleen]

they were from this thread but removed for being offensive. whether they were then thrown into a cell and beaten with a length of rubber hose is not yet known.

 

[jane]

And to vaguely stick to the point.- I wouldn't celebrate the death of a radomer in another country that I don't know simply because he's in a profession I don't respect.

This is basically the point I'm trying to make. I mean, no one is celebrating the death of someone I never knew, but the fact is, I can't help reading this thread with that in mind.

And no, we know so little about my grandfather and people on my dad's side have such a problem with telling the truth that we don't know exactly what he was doing for a living, or if he was retired ,or what the hell was going on, except that his second (maybe third) wife was an ex-hooker who'd had nine husbands. The only thing that's certain is that his death was no accident and that at some point he was in a sheriff's department. But the point is, if he wasn't a cop, then is it any more or less of a tragedy than if he was? It shouldn't be. It has nothing to do with anyone ,except the fact that there have been a LOT of comments made about how it's no sadness when a cop dies. But there's no logic in it. I'm just trying to reiterate what Squiggle was trying to point out, which is that when you suggest that cops' lives don't 'count' in the same way other people's do, it's dangerous territory. It's no big deal not to shed a tear over someone's death, and no one expects extra sympathy, but being actively unsympathetic, or seeing that someone's death was part of 'what they were getting into' (which has been said numerous times) is actually kinda nasty.

As for the use of emotive material, the 'throwing burning bricks through copshop windows' is just making reference to actual suggestions that were made in the beginning of this thread. And you know, I get a little emotive at the suggestion that violence like that could be justified. If there's no emotion allowed in a debate on the internet, then I'll try to remember an anonymous cop mantra next time I post: "Just the facts, ma'am."

I haven't once said anything about 'let's all love the police', and it amuses me that while both Buzzo and I have asked what the alternative to policing is, no one has even bothered to acknowledge it. RAther than see our points, you're just being 'anarcho as fuck' and painting those of us who don't read anarcho fanzines as some kind of enemy. Everyone agrees that police corruption is a huge problem. Everyone agrees on this. Why can't you acknowledge that so that there can be some actual discussion?

It's amazing how, rather than try to see anything other people are saying, you just attack people for not saying exactly what you would have said in the exact anarco-as-fuck language you would have used.

Now, if you don't mind, would you please suggest an alternative to policing? Because if you don't have any solutions at all, you can't have thought this through very much.

 

[Malarky]

Can you read?

It's hard to indicate in words when your tongue is in your cheek.

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

this is just like the time John Kenny played "Copkiller" on the metal show and everyone freaked out

 

[nooleen]

i don't read 'anarcho fanzines' (anarchist zines?), they're boring as fuck and usually badly written. malachy already replied to the question of 'how would you replace the police'.

 

[pete]

i don't read anarcho fanzines, they're boring as fuck and usually badly written. malachy already replied to the question of 'how would you replace the police'.

"I'd like an anarchist utopia" doesn't cut it as either an answer or a solution out here in the real world.

 

[rape the drummer]

But it's not Punx anymore is it?
Hip Hop gigs being advertised here

anyway on a lighter note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGACNG7-zsI

why are you so intolerable. fucking nazi.

 

[nooleen]

"I'd like an anarchist utopia" doesn't cut it as either an answer or a solution out here in the real world.

whereas an irresponsible police force is fantastic.