new liverpool thread - everyone loves them (2 Viewers)

[Cormcolash]

I'm thinking Liverpool need to have an early 1990s Celtic-style fan assault on the boardroom to get their fuckwit owners out of there and get someone with loads of cash in

 

[Lefty Frizzell]

Sobering reading if the figures are accurate. It puts Rafas position in context.

http://www.thegoalposts.com/showthread.php?p=1027485

While "senior sources" at the club (Christan Purslow) try to facilitate a smear campaign against the manager, pretend everything is rosy at the club and briefs the press to headline the Rick Parry pay off on the day the club's financials are tactically released on election results day; here's what's really going on at Liverpool Football Club:


The figures released on Friday 8th May 2010 indicate that Liverpool FC is in net debt to the tune of £351m; an increase of £52m from last year’s figure.

A total of £233.996m is owed to RBS, in addition to an inter-company loan of £144.441m owed to “Kop Cayman”; a company owned by Gillett and Hicks based in the Cayman Island for tax reasons; a company that have loaned Liverpool FC £144.441m at an interest rate of 10%. This is the “own money” that Gillett and Hicks claim to have put into the club. In reality, they’re just charging the club 10% interest for lending that money through an offshore limited liability company that they aren’t even personally liable for – Liverpool FC are.

Liverpool FC are not paying the interest off on that £144.4m however. It is being charged as a “compound interest”, meaning the interest isn’t paid, but is instead “rolled up” to the grand total. For example, this year (if I’ve got this right):

£144.4m @ 10% interest = £14.44m payable this year.

Instead of paying that £14.44m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £158.88m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:

£158.88m @ 10% interest = £15.88m payable next year.

Instead of paying that £15.88m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £174.76m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:

£174.76m @ 10% interest = £17.76m payable next year.

Instead of paying that £17.76m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £192.52m etc etc etc...

The debt soon spirals out of control, as you can see; and don’t forget, this only concerns the £144.4m owed to Gillett and Hick’s Cayman Islands company – it doesn’t concern the huge £234m owed to RBS.

The financial figures released last week are for the 2008/09 season.

Those figures declare the club made a loss of around £52m for that year, due to the interest repayments on the loans and another £22m spent on the new ground; on what that was spent on we have no idea. There’s nothing to show for it anyway – and the total spend on the new ground now exceeds £50m. To put that into perspective – Sunderland managed to build the 48,000 seat Stadium of Light for a lot less than that. We have a few fences up at the back of the Anfield Road End!

Anyway – we made a loss of £52m that year despite finishing 2nd in the league and reaching the latter stages of the Champions League. The accounts also declared a profit made on player transfers (despite Purslow telling us we don’t need to sell players to balance the books and service debt, and Rafa being accused of wasting millions on players – the accounts prove otherwise).

What are next year’s figures (which will reflect the financial state we’re in today) going to look like with a 7th place league finish and an early elimination from the Champions League? We will also have an increased debt to service as explained above.

Then what about the figures for the next financial year when there’s no Champions League money at all coming in?

While the current owners are in place, we are going to continue to fall further and further into debt. We cannot meet the repayments on the loan as it stands now, and with our revenue due to fall with the lack of Champions League football, we’re on the brink of going into administration.

Anyone with hopes of making any signings in the summer or any future transfer windows needs a reality check. We are going to be very lucky to be hold onto the players we’ve got, never mind being able to bring anybody else in.

Gerrard and Torres don’t want to leave because they don’t like the manager (Purslow is feeding this story to the media to whip up the “Rafa Out campaign”); they want to leave as they know there is zero chance of any new players of any quality arriving at the club in its current state. They also know there’s zero chance of any top class manager coming to the club if Benitez decides to walk or is pushed; no manager worth his salt would come to work at the club under these conditions. They know the club is only going one way.

Until Gillett and Hicks are removed from the club, we’re only going to decline. It really is as simple as that. Nothing else matters.

And remember – these debts haven’t been accumulated through overspending in trying to buy success and compete like was the case at Portsmouth, Leeds and various other clubs – they are entirely generated through debt loaded onto the club just so Gillett and Hicks can own us and bleed us dry with expense claims, management fees, arrangement fees for every refinance deal and wasting over £50m of the club’s money on a non-existent new stadium.

This isn’t the result of bad individual club management as Richard Scudamore of The Premier League claims; it is the result of a leveraged buyout that has loaded the cost of buying the club onto the club to repay. Something The Premier League, The FA, UEFA and FIFA should be doing everything in their power to prevent ever happening again.


2007: £44m debt (£3m per year to service)
2008: £350m debt (£36.5m per year to service)
2009: £378m debt (£40m per year to service)
2010: ???

Those are the levels of debt on the club, with it being only £44m before Gillett and Hicks bought the club. Therefore the club’s profits were able to be invested back into the squad, allowing us to compete on the pitch. We’re now crippled by debts we cannot service, when that £40m leaving the club each year in interest repayments should be being spent on new players.

£76.5m has left the club in interest repayments alone in the past 2 years – and in that time – the manager has not spent a single penny on new players. It’s been a sell to buy policy, with profits being made on transfers in the past few transfer windows as the books needed to be balanced; all while the clubs around us are spending to strengthen. How can we be expected to compete under those conditions?

The debt is growing with every passing day. As a result of the lack of investment in the squad (as well as bad luck with injuries / poor decisions / players out of form etc), we’re paying the price on the field with declining performances which will therefore reduce the club’s revenue even further – giving us even less money to service increasing debts. A vicious circle. It’s unsustainable.

Liverpool FC is paying £110,000 every single day in interest repayments to service a debt we should never have in the first place. That’s £110,000 a day of the club’s money that me and you generate, that we should be seeing spent on new players or developing the club; instead – we are standing back and watching the club being ***** in front of our very eyes.

 

[oh shit]

Sobering reading if the figures are accurate. It puts Rafas position in context.

http://www.thegoalposts.com/showthread.php?p=1027485

While "senior sources" at the club (Christan Purslow) try to facilitate a smear campaign against the manager, pretend everything is rosy at the club and briefs the press to headline the Rick Parry pay off on the day the club's financials are tactically released on election results day; here's what's really going on at Liverpool Football Club:


The figures released on Friday 8th May 2010 indicate that Liverpool FC is in net debt to the tune of £351m; an increase of £52m from last year’s figure.

A total of £233.996m is owed to RBS, in addition to an inter-company loan of £144.441m owed to “Kop Cayman”; a company owned by Gillett and Hicks based in the Cayman Island for tax reasons; a company that have loaned Liverpool FC £144.441m at an interest rate of 10%. This is the “own money” that Gillett and Hicks claim to have put into the club. In reality, they’re just charging the club 10% interest for lending that money through an offshore limited liability company that they aren’t even personally liable for – Liverpool FC are.

Liverpool FC are not paying the interest off on that £144.4m however. It is being charged as a “compound interest”, meaning the interest isn’t paid, but is instead “rolled up” to the grand total. For example, this year (if I’ve got this right):

£144.4m @ 10% interest = £14.44m payable this year.

Instead of paying that £14.44m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £158.88m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:

£158.88m @ 10% interest = £15.88m payable next year.

Instead of paying that £15.88m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £174.76m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:

£174.76m @ 10% interest = £17.76m payable next year.

Instead of paying that £17.76m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £192.52m etc etc etc...

The debt soon spirals out of control, as you can see; and don’t forget, this only concerns the £144.4m owed to Gillett and Hick’s Cayman Islands company – it doesn’t concern the huge £234m owed to RBS.

The financial figures released last week are for the 2008/09 season.

Those figures declare the club made a loss of around £52m for that year, due to the interest repayments on the loans and another £22m spent on the new ground; on what that was spent on we have no idea. There’s nothing to show for it anyway – and the total spend on the new ground now exceeds £50m. To put that into perspective – Sunderland managed to build the 48,000 seat Stadium of Light for a lot less than that. We have a few fences up at the back of the Anfield Road End!

Anyway – we made a loss of £52m that year despite finishing 2nd in the league and reaching the latter stages of the Champions League. The accounts also declared a profit made on player transfers (despite Purslow telling us we don’t need to sell players to balance the books and service debt, and Rafa being accused of wasting millions on players – the accounts prove otherwise).

What are next year’s figures (which will reflect the financial state we’re in today) going to look like with a 7th place league finish and an early elimination from the Champions League? We will also have an increased debt to service as explained above.

Then what about the figures for the next financial year when there’s no Champions League money at all coming in?

While the current owners are in place, we are going to continue to fall further and further into debt. We cannot meet the repayments on the loan as it stands now, and with our revenue due to fall with the lack of Champions League football, we’re on the brink of going into administration.

Anyone with hopes of making any signings in the summer or any future transfer windows needs a reality check. We are going to be very lucky to be hold onto the players we’ve got, never mind being able to bring anybody else in.

Gerrard and Torres don’t want to leave because they don’t like the manager (Purslow is feeding this story to the media to whip up the “Rafa Out campaign”); they want to leave as they know there is zero chance of any new players of any quality arriving at the club in its current state. They also know there’s zero chance of any top class manager coming to the club if Benitez decides to walk or is pushed; no manager worth his salt would come to work at the club under these conditions. They know the club is only going one way.

Until Gillett and Hicks are removed from the club, we’re only going to decline. It really is as simple as that. Nothing else matters.

And remember – these debts haven’t been accumulated through overspending in trying to buy success and compete like was the case at Portsmouth, Leeds and various other clubs – they are entirely generated through debt loaded onto the club just so Gillett and Hicks can own us and bleed us dry with expense claims, management fees, arrangement fees for every refinance deal and wasting over £50m of the club’s money on a non-existent new stadium.

This isn’t the result of bad individual club management as Richard Scudamore of The Premier League claims; it is the result of a leveraged buyout that has loaded the cost of buying the club onto the club to repay. Something The Premier League, The FA, UEFA and FIFA should be doing everything in their power to prevent ever happening again.


2007: £44m debt (£3m per year to service)
2008: £350m debt (£36.5m per year to service)
2009: £378m debt (£40m per year to service)
2010: ???

Those are the levels of debt on the club, with it being only £44m before Gillett and Hicks bought the club. Therefore the club’s profits were able to be invested back into the squad, allowing us to compete on the pitch. We’re now crippled by debts we cannot service, when that £40m leaving the club each year in interest repayments should be being spent on new players.

£76.5m has left the club in interest repayments alone in the past 2 years – and in that time – the manager has not spent a single penny on new players. It’s been a sell to buy policy, with profits being made on transfers in the past few transfer windows as the books needed to be balanced; all while the clubs around us are spending to strengthen. How can we be expected to compete under those conditions?

The debt is growing with every passing day. As a result of the lack of investment in the squad (as well as bad luck with injuries / poor decisions / players out of form etc), we’re paying the price on the field with declining performances which will therefore reduce the club’s revenue even further – giving us even less money to service increasing debts. A vicious circle. It’s unsustainable.

Liverpool FC is paying £110,000 every single day in interest repayments to service a debt we should never have in the first place. That’s £110,000 a day of the club’s money that me and you generate, that we should be seeing spent on new players or developing the club; instead – we are standing back and watching the club being ***** in front of our very eyes.

I think the sooner people start realising the scale of this disaster the better. It's already too late to do anything other than lobby. Perhaps the new government will legislate but it's hard to see how they can undo what's already happened. Players will all be well aware of it - they've got proper financial advisers independent of the club. Calling for Rafa's head and speculating about Mourinho is embarrassingly misguided.

 

[I Bleed Black]

I don't get he big deal being made about the £144.4m debt owed to Kop Cayman. The only way that debt or the interest associated with it will ever be paid is if the club is sold, then H&G will essentially be taking out whatever money they have put in through this loan, paying off RBS loan and whatever is left over will be profit. It's creative accounting is all, the same way Ambramovich changed the status of the money he has put into to chelsea to "a loan", it's not a proper loan that gets paid back bit by bit every year. The way I see it we are in the same position we were before we the fans knew anything about this Kop Cayman loan. The RBS loan is the one that is crippling the club and that's the one we need to worry about.

 

[oh shit]

It's the complete lack of transparency particularly over where this money is coming from and where it's going to. Does it represent H&G's investment of their own money? How did they finance it? How is it tied to their other assets elsewhere in the world? No one knows where it's come from and they are flatly refusing to tell.

Meanwhile all we know is that £86m of it was put into the club during the last accounting year just published (08-09), bringing us to a total of around £140m since they took over, with rolled up interest accruing. Yet the financial position of the club is deteriorating. The loans can't be demanded if it means the club going insolvent - that's in the contract - and essentially you are right to say that it's probably just a way of securing their own investments in the event of selling all or part of the shares of the club. But this is fucking miles from what they promised when they took over and the last thing anyone needs now is more uncertainty and particularly not 'creative accounting'.

 

[I Bleed Black]

It's the complete lack of transparency particularly over where this money is coming from and where it's going to. Does it represent H&G's investment of their own money? How did they finance it? How is it tied to their other assets elsewhere in the world? No one knows where it's come from and they are flatly refusing to tell.

Meanwhile all we know is that £86m of it was put into the club during the last accounting year just published (08-09), bringing us to a total of around £140m since they took over, with rolled up interest accruing. Yet the financial position of the club is deteriorating. The loans can't be demanded if it means the club going insolvent - that's in the contract - and essentially you are right to say that it's probably just a way of securing their own investments in the event of selling all or part of the shares of the club. But this is fucking miles from what they promised when they took over and the last thing anyone needs now is more uncertainty and particularly not 'creative accounting'.

Oh of course it's definitely not a good thing and not what the two wanks promised but I guess I'm just too used to their methods at this stage. I can't remember where but I read that the Kop Cayman loan has been secured against assets in the US so hopefully that much at least is true.

 

[Hector Grey]

it's all irrelvant really. the reason that liverpool didn't qualify for the cl this year is all rafa's fault. from alienating alonso the year before to ostracising players like riera. albert cost lfc 8.5 million quid, and rafa was ready to sell him at a loss to get rid of him cos he can't communicate. same goes for aqua, if the rumours are true. that's poor business right there. his repeated fuck ups, poor selctions and baffling recritment policy have nothing to do with the accountants.

 

[I Bleed Black]

it's all irrelvant really. the reason that liverpool didn't qualify for the cl this year is all rafa's fault. from alienating alonso the year before to ostracising players like riera. albert cost lfc 8.5 million quid, and rafa was ready to sell him at a loss to get rid of him cos he can't communicate. same goes for aqua, if the rumours are true. that's poor business right there. his repeated fuck ups, poor selctions and baffling recritment policy have nothing to do with the accountants.

I disagree totally in regard to riera, the guy started whining about not getting a game even though he was injured most of the season up to that point. He started to panic about his world cup place and instead of getting his head down he trys to knock everybodies morale and refers to the club as a sinking ship, if rafa had chopped off both of albert legs and wrote off all of the 8.5m we paid for him I wouldn't have been too bothered. At the time I thought trying to sell Alonso was a mistake but we would never had been in that position if the owners hadn't lied about what funds were available, it's well known that benitez wanted both players in the squad but got backed into a corner because of the lack of dosh. The jury is out on the Aqua situation, I'd be leaning towards building the midfield around him rather than flogging him from the few flashes he started to show towards the end of the season. There's no doubt in my mind he's a quality player but he still has to prove he's physically able for the PL.

Anybody know much about this Banega lad we supposed to be eyeing up? Seems to be very much in the Alonso mould and only 21 too.

 

[oh shit]

I disagree totally in regard to riera, the guy started whining about not getting a game even though he was injured most of the season up to that point. He started to panic about his world cup place and instead of getting his head down he trys to knock everybodies morale and refers to the club as a sinking ship, if rafa had chopped off both of albert legs and wrote off all of the 8.5m we paid for him I wouldn't have been too bothered. At the time I thought trying to sell Alonso was a mistake but we would never had been in that position if the owners hadn't lied about what funds were available, it's well known that benitez wanted both players in the squad but got backed into a corner because of the lack of dosh. The jury is out on the Aqua situation, I'd be leaning towards building the midfield around him rather than flogging him from the few flashes he started to show towards the end of the season. There's no doubt in my mind he's a quality player but he still has to prove he's physically able for the PL.

Anybody know much about this Banega lad we supposed to be eyeing up? Seems to be very much in the Alonso mould and only 21 too.

Spot on. Alonso was sold to raise £30m which promptly went .... where? A few mill up front for Aquilani. Not the full £20m. Almost nothing went back into the team. What you had the year before was Benitez trying to get Barry in but the whole thing being cack-handed by Parry and the owners. Embarrassing, yes, but not something that can just be pinned on Rafa. As for whether or not Barry would have been better or worse than Alonso, we'll never know. But that's why it got ugly, money and broken promises. It was after being 'alienated' that Alonso had one of his best seasons at the club. He's a professional. But that's all irrelevant, sure. It's just that Rafa suddenly has decided that he'd rather spend fuck all on the likes of Ngog than £27m on the likes of Torres. Look how that's worked out eh?

 

[Cormcolash]

Benitez is a fucking mongo. That's been blatantly obvious for the past two seasons.

 

[Hector Grey]

ah lads i just tried to post a massive reply. massive. and the fucking server told me my token had expired. token? what the fuck?

seriously, it was this big.

i can't go through that again. the jist: it's not owners OR benitez... it's both. they're both culpable. look at avram grant. the machinations of the owners wouldn't affect the pitch if it weren't for benitez bringing up his personal duel with the owners at every fucking turn and unfoccusing the team. as for teh litany of shit mistakes he's made...i can't relive typing that again.

banega is a mentaller, but acrafty one. benny likes mentallers?flighty playmakers?occasionally brilliant, often anonymous players that might just turn a game?benny loves them right? dirk kuyt he ain't/

fucking token? what's a fucking token?

 

[Vinnie]

I 'd say that if you analysed every game from this season you are guaranteed at least one Benitez-sponsored utterly incomprehensible decision per game - be it team selection, tactics or substitutions - he's a fucking mentaller. Benitez or the Yanks ruining the club are not mutually exclusive. They're all at it and they all need to fuck off as quickly as is fiscally possible.

 

[Cormcolash]

The turning point of Liverpool's season was when a red balloon scored a goal against them though

 

[coast to coast]

Banego was a much-hyped Argie midfielder who came over very young and was a complete loose canon who Valencia couldn't get rid off quick enough even after giving him to Erratico Madrid and trying to loan him to Everton at the start of this season. However since then he's become a key part of their midfield and has had his best season so far.

Benitez is clearly a very good manager (given his track record) but has also made a lot of mistakes and been put in incredibly difficult situations by the club, which hasn't helped anything. He could've walked away after his first spat with the Cowboys in '08(?) having won a Champions League and F.A. Cup and his reputation enhanced even further. As it was he chose to stick around and stick up for the club and fans - which is why he's so popular with Liverpool fans in general. He's often been accused of pandering to or manipulating the fans, which is probably true, but his actions in sticking around and fighting for the club are louder than any words he might say in their praise.

Like I said though, he's made some fucking abysmal signings and decisions that still baffle, funnily enough, all of those which preceded the year in which we played by far the best football (last season) - even though they didn't win a trophy. The main thing about that was confidence though. This year we started with none (because I'm sure the players are aware of the desperate state of the club, hence Reina saying after the first game that "winning the league is a realistic aim for us" - odd considering that we could/should have won it the previous season) and got worse as we started losing games in unfortunate situations - Spurs and Villa were good against us, but last season there's no way we would never have lost to them. Then a string of last minute goals knocks you out of the CL - things go from bad to worse.

On the other hand, Rafa failed to organise and motivate the team this year, which is his job description. Plus he bought Degen. I'd have no problem with him having one more season if the club is put on the right road during the summer with new owners, movement on the stadium and some sort of reasonable transfer budget, but if he's sacked then so be it, I won't be heartbroken - just as long as there are new (decent) custodians.

 

[Hector Grey]

he stuck around? it's his fucking job and he's paid handsomely for it. it's hardly something we should all be grateful for. if he left in 08 we'd be in a better situation now.

he got degen free, however, and degen isn't the worst player he's brought in.

as for confidence, the pre season was a cunt as well, gerrard missed 10 days with his trial, the confederations farce of a cup, the protracted exit of xabi drained the players and there were some crucial injuries pre season. despite this, he bought a player who had been out for a season, was still injured and didn't actually play in a position that we were desperately short in (aqua is still a class player, though. i reckon rafa sees him as a replacement for gerrard, never for alonso). knowing that aurelio was crocked, and that he wasn't going to stick with dossena (and there's another couple of million that could have bought some cover, how much was nico krancjar?2 mill? how much did liverpool lose on dosser?) he didn't invest in a left back, and god love him, insua was responsible for about 70% of goals conceded this season. the ease with which players pushed past him, the amount of goals given away from crosses from that wing... not to mention that we only had one recognised left winger...and he wasn't being picked... oh whatever.

05 bought rafa a lot of time, and that was the scene of his biggest fuck up... he got lucky. if gerrard hadn't scored that goal against olympiakos, rafa would be long gone.

 

[Vinnie]

Beintez record with Liverpool - 1 Champion's League (fluke), 1 FA Cup, 1 League title flushed down the jacks through bad decisions (2008-2009), 1 X worst season in 20 years, 0 X youth team players making the breakthrough.

It's not a good record. It's only sentimentality and a ridiculous contract that still has him at the club. He's brutal and he's completely lost it and he has to go.

 

[coast to coast]

I agree with some of what you lads are saying but calling the Champions League in 2005 a fluke is moronic. Absolutely fucking moronic. It was a suprise and it was unusual true, but you cannot fluke winning the Champions League. They whomped Leverkusen (who had topped Galactico Era Real's group and beaten them 3-0), beat Juventus (pre Calciopoli relegation when names like Nedved and Del Piero were still feared) and beat Mourinho's Chelsea, probably the most convincing Premier League champions of the last 10 years (along with Arsenal's Invincibles). Then mounted an outrageous comeback against Milan when 3-0 down.

His overall record as you have stated isn't great. It was very close to being brilliant though, which unfortunately isn't good enough.

Also Hector I'm pretty sure you were calling for his head halfway through our best season in twenty years (after drawing with Wigan, late Lucas penno) and if you are going to use hypotheticals to make a point, so will I:

IF Gerrard or Pennant had scored against Milan in Athens he'd have won 2 European Cups in 3 years
IF we got late jammy goals in two of out 0-0s at Anfield, or a penno in the last minute in the Arsenal 4-4, or IF Ronaldo and Rooney had been sent off for repeatedly kicking opponents when tackled last year, we would have won the league.

Club'd still be fucked even IF we'd won all those things. Benitez future is practically irrelevant as far as I'm concerned as long as Hicks and Gillette are still there.

 

[Vinnie]

The champions league final was pure fluke from a management point of view. The players won that with almost no help from Benitez (conceding only when we were 3-0 down that leaving Hamman out might have been a bad decision).

 

[Hector Grey]

our best season? what did we achieve? 2nd in the fucking league? out of the cup to everton? capitulaion at anfeild to chelsea in the cl? robbie keane and andrea dossena our banner signings that summer? best season? if benitez had any fucking cop, liverpool would have won that league, due to how poor chelsea and arsenal were, and the fact that spurs and city hadn't found their feet. that was his opportunity and he fucked it up. second is nothing. it's as good as fourth, as we know. seven home draws, to mickey mouse teams. SEVEN!!!

as for the champions league final in 05. the act of genius was bringing on hamman to reign in kaka. actual real tactical acumen would have been starting the cunt. 05 was a glorious mess. if it had been a tight first half, liverpool would have lost. but he had nothing to lose. so he did something he hasn't done since, he threw caution to the wind. and as for the 07 final. rafa brought on harry kewell and alvaro arbeloa and left bellamy on the bench and fucked it all away. which was so much more like him. chasing a european cup. take off a right back with two minutes to go......for a right back. just like against atlethico in the semi's of the euro-pot.

it wasn't a fluke, as you say, but he got lucky in the final. lucky he had steven gerrard. the player he tried to flog right after it too.

 

[coast to coast]

The champions league final was pure fluke from a management point of view. The players won that with almost no help from Benitez (conceding only when we were 3-0 down that leaving Hamman out might have been a bad decision).

Yeh, well I disagree with that. All you done is said that the players deserve the credit for when things go right and the manager deserves the blame when things go wrong because you're trying to argue against the manager.

It wasn't a "fluke"