Miss D (1 Viewer)

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

It's emerged that the District Court has refused to give Miss D permission to travel to the UK for an abortion.
The High Court has heard that during a special sitting on Saturday, the HSE applied for a direction as to whether it was appropriate for the 17 year old
to travel.
The judge said that granting the order would amount to a failure to protect the rights of the unborn and would therefore be unlawful and improper.
The HSE is now bringing a judicial review action challenging that order, stating the judge misconstrued the law by that she should not be allowed to
travel.
The court has heard that the decision was considerably influenced by the C Case which involved a 13 year old victim of rape, who was allowed to
travel because it was likely she'd take her own life if she continued with the pregnancy.
Miss D is now over 17 weeks pregnant with a child which has a brain condition and will not live for more than three days after birth.
The case continues at the High Court.

 

[Buzzo]

It's emerged that the District Court has refused to give Miss D permission to travel to the UK for an abortion.

The judge said that granting the order would amount to a failure to protect the rights of the unborn and would therefore be unlawful and improper.

The HSE is now bringing a judicial review action challenging that order, stating the judge misconstrued the law by that she should not be allowed to
travel.

The case continues at the High Court.

I don't get it. The reason the HSE asked if she could travel, by my understanding, is that it's a requirement of her care order, nothing to do with abortion. She was refused the right to travel on the grounds that granting permission would amount to failure to protect rights of the unborn. Would that not mean that on those grounds, every pregnant woman should be stopped from travelling for an abortion? I mean, aren't they making that decision just because they can? Is this setting some kind of crazy precedent? Or could this be some thin end of the wedge shit in terms of people travelling for abortions.... this seems bonkers. Does anyone know what's going on? Are those my feet?

 

[jane]

I don't get it. The reason the HSE asked if she could travel, by my understanding, is that it's a requirement of her care order, nothing to do with abortion. She was refused the right to travel on the grounds that granting permission would amount to failure to protect rights of the unborn. Would that not mean that on those grounds, every pregnant woman should be stopped from travelling for an abortion? I mean, aren't they making that decision just because they can? Is this setting some kind of crazy precedent? Or could this be some thin end of the wedge shit in terms of people travelling for abortions.... this seems bonkers. Does anyone know what's going on? Are those my feet?

I don't know, Buzzo, it's definitely bonkers. It seems that everyone but the pregnant woman's rights are being taken into account: the right for the gardaí to hold her in custody (which of course they can't), the right to life of a foetus that can't survive outside the womb (so, the right to life of something that cannot actually live), the rights of the HSE to put the 'loco' in 'in loco parentis', all a bunch of ham-fisted attempts to avoid allowing people to see that whatever you feel about abortion as a practice (i.e., whether you feel it's a medical procedure or babykilling) the legislation and constitutional language that surrounds it is about controlling women's bodies.

And at the end of it all, the poor girl who actually wanted the baby can't even get the chance to deal with the fact that a baby for whom she'd already bought nappies is never going to be a bouncing babba on her lap, and that in the eyes of the powers-that-be, her life and her health and her happiness are of no value at all.

Ugh. So yeah, Buzzo, does that mean that every foetus is automatically under the care of the HSE unless otherwise stated? Because if the constitution recognises the foetus as an autonomous individual, then...I dunno....someone pass me the ether. I'm very confused.

 

[Unicron]

I had Fianna Fail canvassers at the door today. I asked the for the official party line on the case. They hummed and hawed before admitting they didn't have one, then kinda slyly poointed out that the ministers for justice and health who would ahve the most direct interest in the case were PD's.

 

[ernesto]

I had Fianna Fail canvassers at the door today. I asked the for the official party line on the case. They hummed and hawed before admitting they didn't have one, then kinda slyly poointed out that the ministers for justice and health who would ahve the most direct interest in the case were PD's.

then did you spit on them?

 

[Unicron]

then did you spit on them?

My mother raised me to be polite. I informed them I wouldn't be supporting the government.

 

[Shine]

From the choice ireland blog:

D case verdict expected tomorrow

The high court is due to decide Miss D's fate tomorrow at 2pm. Pro-choice rally in support of Miss D outside the Four Courts from 1.30pm.

There was a counter-demonstration of anti-choice extremists present at Monday's rally, see http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82420

Miss D has said she is glad of everyone's support. She bravely walked past the callously-displayed anti-abortion placards saying, "I don't care what they think".

Their presence on Monday just shows who the "pro-lifers" really are: anti-woman extremists, who think that even a foetus that will not live has an equal right to life as a young woman. It shows that even in the most straight-forward cases of the need for abortion, one can never argue logic with these people. No sane person could countenance forcing Miss D to go through with the trauma of pregnancy and birth when she clearly wants her agony to end.

The people of Ireland are far-and-away supportive of Miss D. Though some of them don't know it, the people of Ireland are far-and-away Pro-Choice. They know, as Choice Ireland knows, that abortion is a terrible thing to have to go through. It is a terrible choice to have to make. But sometimes it is the only choice. And, given proper access to impartial information and counselling, only the woman involved can decide when she needs to have an abortion. No-one, neither church nor state, has the right to interfere.

Long after they should have disappeared into the woodwork, the anti-choice element continues to make its presence felt in Ireland. They are seen with their gruesome placards on our streets, they are read in letters columns in our newspapers. They are present here and there throughout society in the guise of the social worker who would report Miss D to the gardai, the homeless-worker who would kick women out of hostels for having condoms, the teacher who would show young people pro-foetus bloodied propaganda and the pregnancy “counsellor” who would lie to young women about the process and after-effects of abortion. But though these people have a big voice, they have a small following. They are religious, anti-sex, anti-contraceptive, anti-choice fundamentalists. Let us hope their voice begins to be heard in Ireland for what it really is, and ignored.

Miss D has made her choice. Let her be. Let her go.

We in Choice Ireland are saddened that this case had to come to pass. Let there be no more cases like this. Let us stop exporting the problems of our young women. Let us stop traumatising and stigmatising them. We have already enshrined the "right to travel" for abortions in our constitution. Now let us break free from the pervasive influence of religious fanatics, let us end the hypocrisy and see that Irish women have the "right not to travel" for abortions.

Free, safe, legal abortions in Ireland now.

 

[nofunchee]

that statement is very well written. well done choice ireland.

 

[Unicron]

that statement is very well written.

You're kidding surely? It's horribly slanted. Pro-choicers are campaigners yet pro-lifers are extremists?

I particularly liked the part that implied the pro-life movement shouldn't get column space in the letters section of the newspapers.

 

[Janer]

"Teresa
‘What is the point of cursing and swearing at mothers with young babies just because you disagree with them’
This is a lie and you know it, this never happened and it obvicious you are yourself anti-woman and spreading this anti-woman propaganda. "

From Indymedia lol.......

 

[Shine]

Finally, the high court is letting her go.
Shouldn't they have taken five minutes last Thursday to do that?
Insane that she has been dragged through all this.

 

[Squiggle]

Finally, the high court is letting her go.
Shouldn't they have taken five minutes last Thursday to do that?
Insane that she has been dragged through all this.

Maybe they were hoping that the stress would cause a miscarriage, thus saving them from having to make a decision

 

[Shine]

You're kidding surely? It's horribly slanted. Pro-choicers are campaigners yet pro-lifers are extremists?

specifically related to those who showed up outside the high court on monday and today.
thankfully, miss d wasn't around to see them today.
poor girl.

and after all that, now she has an abortion to go through.

i just hope she has access to proper counselling.

 

[Unicron]

Finally, the high court is letting her go.
Shouldn't they have taken five minutes last Thursday to do that?

Ethically yeah but legally I suspect they wanted to be sure that every i was dotted and t crossed so it didn't leave a possibility of an appeal to the supreme court being made and delaying the prcoess furthur.

 

[zero_hero]

I wonder as an aside if this hadn't gotten so political are they actually thinking about the girl and what she is going through?

It seems to have become a politically dilemna instead of the question of how can this 17 year old girl get through this trauma with the least possible damage to her emotionally? Would an abortion be the right thing or would seeing her baby to full term and then not having to feel guilty?

Dont get me wrong.... I am totally in favour of pro-choice. I just heard an argument on the radio about this case from a pyschologist saying perhaps if she did see her baby die it could be less traumatic than abortion which for some women can be even more painful. It seemed to make sense to me when I heard it.

Then I looked up those images. If that shocks me so much over the computer I couldn't imagine what that girl would go through.

 

[carbide]

You're kidding surely? It's horribly slanted. Pro-choicers are campaigners yet pro-lifers are extremists?

i'd agree that it's appallingly badly written, with "The people of Ireland are far-and-away supportive of Miss D. Though some of them don't know it, the people of Ireland are far-and-away Pro-Choice." as the condescending high point. and i hate to say it, because i completely support choice ireland's work.


more importantly, i'm so, so relieved to hear that she can travel, even if it is beyond ludicrous that she and every other woman can't access abortion services here.

 

[minka]

I wonder as an aside if this hadn't gotten so political are they actually thinking about the girl and what she is going through?

It seems to have become a politically dilemna instead of the question of how can this 17 year old girl get through this trauma with the least possible damage to her emotionally? Would an abortion be the right thing or would seeing her baby to full term and then not having to feel guilty?

Dont get me wrong.... I am totally in favour of pro-choice. I just heard an argument on the radio about this case from a pyschologist saying perhaps if she did see her baby die it could be less traumatic than abortion which for some women can be even more painful. It seemed to make sense to me when I heard it.

Then I looked up those images. If that shocks me so much over the computer I couldn't imagine what that girl would go through.

not to mention the fact that the three days prognosis is a "best case" scenario, there is also a very high likelihood that the baby would be stillborn.

there was a breda o'brien thing in the times on saturday about how carrying the baby to term with all our love and support would give her "time to grieve" and how it would be lovely and healing and life-enriching for her to "say goodbye to her little child in person" (or some such) that made me so furious i nearly threw the newspaper across the room. HAS NO HEAD, breda, HAS NO HEAD.

anyway, i too am very relieved that she is allowed to travel, and what carbide said.

 

[nofunchee]

You're kidding surely? It's horribly slanted. Pro-choicers are campaigners yet pro-lifers are extremists?

I particularly liked the part that implied the pro-life movement shouldn't get column space in the letters section of the newspapers.

i just thought it covered a good range of issues in a short space and used straightforward language. i also happen to agree with it.

the pro-lifers mentioned are extremists. the ones who turned up at the four courts on monday were fire and brimstone to the max. a couple of their more vocal members were saying that all the pro-choice people there had STDs and that it was foreigners trying to bring abortion into ireland.

the bit about the letters to newspapers looked to me to be an example of where and when these people show themselves. i don't think it necessarily implies that another perspective shouldn't be printed. mind you i don't think the irish times printing these two beauties last friday is positive at all:

Madam, - Ms D is faced with a terrible predicament.
Should she proceed with an abortion, the knowledge that she has been the instigator of her baby's death may be harder to live with than allowing her baby to live and die with dignity. - Yours, etc,
LYNN KEE, St Mochta's Green, Clonsilla, Dublin 15.

Madam, - I see you have received some correspondence stating that the continuation of Miss D's pregnancy would be monstrous and abominable.
If Miss D decides not to continue with her pregnancy, her child will be dismembered, and the remains disposed of as medical waste, by people who claim to practise medicine.
That's truly monstrous. - Is mise,
LEO TALBOT, Moy Glas Way, Lucan, Co Dublin.

while shit like this expresses an alternative opinion to the pro-choice one it adds fuck all to the debate around this issue. it's not a black and white issue and different people have different concerns.

for these pro-lifers the bottom line is that abortion is murder. they ignore the reality of people's situations and in the meantime loads of irish women are forced to travel abroad in secret with fuck all pre and post abortion support. indeed, many of them are thrown into the hands of dodgy pro-life counseling services who give them false info and try to make them feel shit.

also, according to james connolly who is sc for the unborn, the fact that miss d's baby cannot survive after birth "is irrelevant" to the case because a live foetus is entitled to the constitutional protection for the unborn. where's the humanity? these people are craxy.

 

[socmot]

I'm going to defend Choice Ireland's statement.
In the interests of full disclosure - I am a member of Choice Ireland.

I don't agree that it is appallingly badly written, although perhaps some of the wording could be better - the statement probably does sound a little preachy, but in my own personal opinion, it's not wrong either. Some people in Ireland - the Pro-Life Campaign in particular - insist that the majority of Ireland is not pro-choice, even after two constitutional referenda on the subject. The referenda passed in 1992 shows that the majority of Irish people are pro-choice - while the people may not like abortion in Ireland, they did vote in favour of the right to travel and the right to information. In 2002, the people further voted to prevent the 1992 amendments being removed from the Constitution.

As for the references in the statement to pro-lifers being extremists, yes, perhaps it might have been worded better, however, it is not what I consider to be slanted. That part of the statement is based on the pro-lifers who appeared outside the courts and who were most definitely extremists. One of them (Michael Larkin of the Christian Solidarity Party) is in charge of the (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82102) WRC clinic on Dorset Street, that gives misleading information on abortion to women who seek advice when they have a crisis pregnancy. They egged on an elderly priest present at their protest to walk along the front of the pro-choice grouping, splashing holy water as he went, I got bit of a splash myself.

They confronted members of the pro-choice campaign by sticking video cameras in their faces, and when the the pro-choice people reacted by pushing the cameras away, the pro-life people accused them of assault. They cheered when cars passed by them on the quays beeping their horns.

Cheers.

 

[Unicron]

also, according to james connolly who is sc for the unborn, the fact that miss d's baby cannot survive after birth "is irrelevant" to the case because a live foetus is entitled to the constitutional protection for the unborn. where's the humanity? these people are craxy.

It is legal council's responsibility to argue as strongly as possible for their client and from my limited understanding that could be a compelling argument from a purely legal standpoint, if constitutionally the right to life of the unborn is protected then how far does it extend within the current framework? I also believe that in the decision that point wasn't even looked at because the judge said that the main thing to be decided on was the freedom to travel issue and once he'd sided against the HSE then he was able to sidestep Connolly's point so it's still up in the air.

As for the letters to the times. Sometimes it's better to let idiots hang themselves with their own words.