Ireland (1 Viewer)

Deadmanposting

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That's exactly what i said now that i think about it. Sorry i must have typed something completely different while saying it
I was being cranky
More angry at myself for not making my point well enough - this gem of a thought of mine that needed out in the world of ideas
 

seanc

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So anyway....


If the "Not Ireland" thread is about things that not-Ireland does better than Ireland then here's something Ireland does better than elsewhere: Ireland does democracy better than say the UK.

I'm well aware it doesn't seem like that you being there, or to my facebook-happy uncle. But I'm in the UK, so I'm dealing with Boris etc.

But I've explained proportional representation to the smartest and dumbest of UK people, and people from elsewhere. Yes it involves a lot of counting, but it's better. And they have agreed with me, once they got their heads around the idea that there's another way apart from the first past the post system.

Here, If you're for example a tory voter in a firmly labour constituency, then your elected representative doesn't care about your opinions and never will. Ireland's completely different.



On the other hand, the UK does local government better. But that's another long post.
 

Deadmanposting

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The argument

This shitshow of "repression, lies and death" you're talking about though is regularly not coming from the elected leftist leaders, it's coming from Capitalist powers, who are for reasons unknown terrified of the left gaining a foothold.

That the repression and lies and death under communism somehow came from capitalist subversion
It did not. The call was coming from inside the house.
Any totalitarian regime - especially communism, which somehow cannot exist if there are competing systems anywhere - cannot exist by allowing dissension.
It's why Stalin killed anyone who looked crooked and people would rather run the risk of getting shot than live under communism, and why someone would stand in front of a tank for an idea.
The capitalists didn't do that to these regimes, they did it to themselves. Because they always do.
They will lock up or kill anyone with the 'wrong' idea.
They don't need the evil capitalists help with that.
Stalin killed 20 million.
But Communism would have worked if only blah blah blah.
Mental

Communism is still a fetid hellhole to live in no matter how evil the Brits were. And they were plenty evil.

Also, all empires are bad.

Goodnight.
 

ann post

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I was being cranky
More angry at myself for not making my point well enough - this gem of a thought of mine that needed out in the world of ideas

I just said communism is kinda impossible to try out as people fantasize it because of competition for resources outside the communist bubble will always effect it. If if there was a fantastically good communist state in existence the countries they trade with would make damn sure life was shitty some way or another to feather thier own nests.

But I didn't actually disagree with anything you said, or say real applications of communism have been good, i just said it's eternally an abstract concept.

I'm very much in favour of sharing of resources, information, time, labour and so on though, it's a necessity
 

taubstumm

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The argument



That the repression and lies and death under communism somehow came from capitalist subversion
It did not. The call was coming from inside the house.
Any totalitarian regime - especially communism, which somehow cannot exist if there are competing systems anywhere - cannot exist by allowing dissension.
It's why Stalin killed anyone who looked crooked and people would rather run the risk of getting shot than live under communism, and why someone would stand in front of a tank for an idea.
The capitalists didn't do that to these regimes, they did it to themselves. Because they always do.
They will lock up or kill anyone with the 'wrong' idea.
They don't need the evil capitalists help with that.
Stalin killed 20 million.
But Communism would have worked if only blah blah blah.
Mental

Communism is still a fetid hellhole to live in no matter how evil the Brits were. And they were plenty evil.

Also, all empires are bad.

Goodnight.

ok I think you’re living with some kind of looney-tunes version of the twentieth century bouncing around inside your head, which must be pretty exhausting. but I’m tempted to go full-on devil’s advocate here just out of a sort of soft trollishness. so — communism? you mean, the only social system that can create conditions where families are legally defined as being whatever people want them to be?

“Under the principle that love is the first condition a family needs to exist, the new Families Code has the merit of broadening the concepts of inclusion we have known so far”

 

Deadmanposting

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ok I think you’re living with some kind of looney-tunes version of the twentieth century bouncing around inside your head, which must be pretty exhausting. but I’m tempted to go full-on devil’s advocate here just out of a sort of soft trollishness. so — communism? you mean, the only social system that can create conditions where families are legally defined as being whatever people want them to be?

“Under the principle that love is the first condition a family needs to exist, the new Families Code has the merit of broadening the concepts of inclusion we have known so far”

I have plenty of bats in the belfry, like most everyone on here.
I dunno about definitions, just what happened and what I've read about.

Cuba is not the worst place, but they had enough moral panic over Aids that they tested everyone and put anyone positive in lifetime quarantine camps. Not for what they did, but for what they might do.
That can't have been great on families.
And don't we have all sorts of non-traditional families in Ireland anyways?
If you wanted every possible chance for your child, would you have rather raised a family under Kohl or Honecker?

Anyways, I don't mean to go overboard, it's just overall surprising to me that people here want to defend Stalin's system of govt. Or in the matter of the Tianamen Sq, tank, they're with the guys who ordered the tanks in.
In Russia and China, the killing was inherent. It wasn't some add-on. They needed to kill so they could keep people obedient in their shitty system.
And all this "but the capitalists..." as an excuse. Please.
That seems to me to be a looney tunes version of the 20th century.
But I guess if you love Communism, or have some idea that it never got a fair go, then you can't see any of that.
Seems just blatantly self-evident to me. Or maybe I am nuts. My Ma likes me though.
 

egg_

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Anyways, I don't mean to go overboard, it's just overall surprising to me that people here want to defend Stalin's system of govt. Or in the matter of the Tianamen Sq, tank, they're with the guys who ordered the tanks in.
...
But I guess if you love Communism, or have some idea that it never got a fair go, then you can't see any of that.
I think the disconnect here is that some folks here see all the bad stuff as a by-product of other aspects of the russian/chinese political systems, and not necessarily the fact they were communist. Lots of awful stuff happened in pre-communist Russia, for example, and in other non-communist authoritarian regimes like Pincochet's (or The Super Obvious German Dude who I won't mention just to avoid invoking Godwin's law)

There's no real way of telling who's right. Like I said before I think that things like show trials and thought policing are probably implicit in ideology-based political systems, so I'd be probably a little more in your camp than some others ... but y'know I could be wrong, and unless there's a serious proposal to switch the political system of Ireland over to the oul communism then I'm not gonna waste too much emotional energy on it
 
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egg_

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oh and fwiw - IMO you are right that there's a tendency to blame "capitalism" or "the west" for all the terrible shit that happens/has happened elsewhere in the world. Similar for revisionist histories of non-European cultures, where anything bad that happened in them is somehow blamed on European influence or interference, as if being mean was invented by the brits or the spaniards or the pope
 

Deadmanposting

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I think that things like show trials and thought policing are probably implicit in ideology-based political systems
Thank you
This is what I was trying to say - massively inartfully - you can't have the system without the systematic repression
Even if these elements show up elsewhere, they are inherent to these systems.

Back to work.
Love to all.
 

magicbastarder

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crossover post for the pizza topic and the veggie topic - dominos have a new veggie option, which my wife says is decent, the veggie pesto. her main criticism of it is that there were too many toppings, it's a bit of a smorgasbord.
 

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