Information?power?What? (1 Viewer)

[Stephen]

Guess David Icke might have something to say about this. Something scary about the goverment not having to give both sides of the arguement.

From todays Irish times
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2001/1213/hom13.htm

[4]Bill to halt funds for referendum campaigners[/4]

[1]By Alison O'Connor, Political Reporter[/1]
The Government has decided that groups supporting and opposing the proposed abortion referendum will not receive State funding for the campaign.

A Bill to be rushed through the Dáil this week will change the brief of the Referendum Commission so that it will not be presenting both sides of the issue in future referendum campaigns.

It does not, however, contain provision for political parties and interest groups to be funded as proposed recently in a report from the Oireachtas All-Party Committee on the Constitution.

The changes have been criticised by the Green Party MEP, Ms Patricia McKenna. She said the purpose of the Bill was to prevent public money being used to give citizens fair and easy access to the Yes and No arguments in a referendum campaign.

"This is a major assault on the right to information and is further evidence of the Government's contempt for Irish people. The Government did not respect the People's No to the Nice Treaty and now it is trying to change the rules to suit its own agenda," she said.

The Bill proposes that the Commission prepare statements containing "general explanation of the subject matter of the proposal" and "any other information relating to those matters that the Commission considers appropriate".

It also proposes that the Commission publish and distribute those statements through television, radio and other electronic media "which the Commission considers most likely to bring them to the attention of the electorate".

The Green Party foreign affairs spokesman, Mr John Gormley, said the Government was intent on rushing through the new Referendum Bill before the Dáil recess on Friday. He said the legislation would not properly be debated and was intended to "clip the wings" of the Referendum Commission. He said the real intention was to ensure that the Irish people did not get real information on a second Nice Referendum.

Mr Anthony Coughlan, chairman of National Platform, agreed with Mr Gormley, and added that it was an attempt to find a way around the McKenna judgement.

 

[Daveor]

Stephen (13 Dec, 2001 10:18 a.m.):
Guess David Icke might have something to say about this. Something scary about the goverment not having to give both sides of the arguement.

I don't see why they should give both sides?
I think the referendum commission just confuses people. It should be up to the opposition to give their view if they oppose it. no?

---
only sheep need a leader

 

[Anne OMalley]

Difficult one this. On the one hand, we should expect the government to at least pay lip-service to impartiality - after all, what's at stake is an amendment to our beloved Bunreacht na hEireann. They'd look a bit daft if we voted for the amendment after the governement had stated their opposition to it (i.e. the reverse of the Nice Treaty situation).

On the other hand, one would expect them to have a policy on this, one of the most divisive issues in Irish politics over the past 20 years.

Daveor, about the opposition: for a person whose signature line reads like a tag-line for anarchism, you're very optimistic about what we might expect from democratic politics of the Irish sort...

Daveor (13 Dec, 2001 04:08 p.m.):

Stephen (13 Dec, 2001 10:18 a.m.):
Guess David Icke might have something to say about this. Something scary about the goverment not having to give both sides of the arguement.

I don't see why they should give both sides?
I think the referendum commission just confuses people. It should be up to the opposition to give their view if they oppose it. no?

---
only sheep need a leader

 

[Stuart Little]

I don't see why they should give both sides?
I think the referendum commission just confuses people. It should be up to the opposition to give their view if they oppose it. no?

Except that the opposition don't have the nation's bank account at their disposal to fund massive media campaigns.

 

[Stuart Little]

I don't see why they should give both sides?
I think the referendum commission just confuses people. It should be up to the opposition to give their view if they oppose it. no?

Except that the opposition don't have the nation's bank account at their disposal to fund massive media campaigns.

 

[Anne OMalley]

Yes!


And yes!

Stewart Little (13 Dec, 2001 04:51 p.m.):

I don't see why they should give both sides?
I think the referendum commission just confuses people. It should be up to the opposition to give their view if they oppose it. no?

Except that the opposition don't have the nation's bank account at their disposal to fund massive media campaigns.

 

[Daveor]

Anne O'Malley (13 Dec, 2001 04:42 p.m.):
Difficult one this. On the one hand, we should expect the government to at least pay lip-service to impartiality - after all, what's at stake is an amendment to our beloved Bunreacht na hEireann. They'd look a bit daft if we voted for the amendment after the governement had stated their opposition to it (i.e. the reverse of the Nice Treaty situation).

On the other hand, one would expect them to have a policy on this, one of the most divisive issues in Irish politics over the past 20 years.

Daveor, about the opposition: for a person whose signature line reads like a tag-line for anarchism, you're very optimistic about what we might expect from democratic politics of the Irish sort...

I'm certainly not the most well informed on
Irish politics or the intricacies of the current issue but i'll have a stab at some general comments(and reveal my ignorance)

Anne:
impartiality? hmm they should certainly not withhold information or purposefully obfuscate it. But why should they be impartial? I would expect them to do their upmost to convince me to vote a certain way. I would also expect the same of the opposition.
I think you might have hit upon something with " They'd look a bit daft if we voted for the amendment after the government had stated their opposition" perhaps they have learned from nice and are purposefully trying to avoid taking a position so they don't come out the 'loser' in the referendum.

For the government not to have a firm policy on an issue is surely the sign of it being a dodgy government (then again I'd love to see a government/politician say they weren't sure about an issue yet and were busy consulting the relevant experts to form a policy. professions of certainty and appeals to authority are suspect i reckon)

the signature is from Mr Wrong of nomeansno fame.
I'm probably more into democracy than anarchy although i've heard good things
about anarcho-syndicalism (?).
I'm exteremly pessimistic about what I might expect from Irish politics,
e-democracy will save us all I hope.


Stewart:
Is that the case? I had imagined they had _some_ access to state funds, were do they get the money for "party political broadcasts on behalf of the..."?
Naively I would say government and opposition should have equal access to the media.

 

[Monkey]

If people are not informed about both sides of the arguement they will make ignorant decisions. I think it is the government's duty to act in the best interests of the people of Ireland. It's not in our best interests to have ill-informed, ignorant people making important decisions.

 

[selephonic]

Monkey (13 Dec, 2001 06:46 p.m.):
If people are not informed about both sides of the arguement they will make ignorant decisions. I think it is the government's duty to act in the best interests of the people of Ireland. It's not in our best interests to have ill-informed, ignorant people making important decisions.

despite the fact that that's what we've always had

 

[Anne OMalley]

Daveor, sorry about the delay in replying. To respond to your point about the opposition: there is absolutely nothing in our political system that requires "oppositionality" from the Opposition in the Dail.

You shouldn't be surprised about that. Even on a logical level, it's not really conceivable. Any proposition could have several other propositions that are "opposed" to it, especially in the political sense, but all of which differ from each other. Opposition is not to be confused with negation; in this context, it means something closer to "difference".

Even still, some might go as far as to argue that there is very little difference between our political parties. There are probably more differences of tone or emphasis between, say, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, than there are of strict policies or over-arching political orientation.

Re your point about Nice - that was what I was implying. Bertie et al are desparately afraid of being stung by what the public might perceive as a campaign of misinformation, depending on the result. The logic seems to be: better not to inform than to misinform.

Nevertheless, I still think the Government has a duty to give us a both sides of the story. They're supposed to be separate from the legislature, remember, according to the doctrine of the "separation of powers", which is one of the key principles that is supposed to underpin our parliamentary democracy.

But I think you've put your finger on it: they're terrified of making a stand on an issue which still divides the country.

I saw the following two pieces of graffiti recently. The first read:

"ABORTION IS MURDER"

The second was a response to the first. It read:

"until men can have babies, shut your cunting rapist's gob up"

Now there's a division...

Daveor (13 Dec, 2001 06:29 p.m.):

Anne O'Malley (13 Dec, 2001 04:42 p.m.):
Difficult one this. On the one hand, we should expect the government to at least pay lip-service to impartiality - after all, what's at stake is an amendment to our beloved Bunreacht na hEireann. They'd look a bit daft if we voted for the amendment after the governement had stated their opposition to it (i.e. the reverse of the Nice Treaty situation).

On the other hand, one would expect them to have a policy on this, one of the most divisive issues in Irish politics over the past 20 years.

Daveor, about the opposition: for a person whose signature line reads like a tag-line for anarchism, you're very optimistic about what we might expect from democratic politics of the Irish sort...

I'm certainly not the most well informed on
Irish politics or the intricacies of the current issue but i'll have a stab at some general comments(and reveal my ignorance)

Anne:
impartiality? hmm they should certainly not withhold information or purposefully obfuscate it. But why should they be impartial? I would expect them to do their upmost to convince me to vote a certain way. I would also expect the same of the opposition.
I think you might have hit upon something with " They'd look a bit daft if we voted for the amendment after the government had stated their opposition" perhaps they have learned from nice and are purposefully trying to avoid taking a position so they don't come out the 'loser' in the referendum.

For the government not to have a firm policy on an issue is surely the sign of it being a dodgy government (then again I'd love to see a government/politician say they weren't sure about an issue yet and were busy consulting the relevant experts to form a policy. professions of certainty and appeals to authority are suspect i reckon)

the signature is from Mr Wrong of nomeansno fame.
I'm probably more into democracy than anarchy although i've heard good things
about anarcho-syndicalism (?).
I'm exteremly pessimistic about what I might expect from Irish politics,
e-democracy will save us all I hope.


Stewart:
Is that the case? I had imagined they had _some_ access to state funds, were do they get the money for "party political broadcasts on behalf of the..."?
Naively I would say government and opposition should have equal access to the media.

 

[t0mred]

Adding my anything but well informed two cent worth, on the Nice treaty, to me anyway, it seemed like the government were trying to push the whole issue past us without saying anything about it.
I remember two posters stuck up all around town say ing something along the lines of more money, more power, more freedom and the other one saying the complete opposite.

the feeling around at the time was a complete mistrust of the boys club government in charge.

incidentally, having been away in Europe and festivals and meeting people there, foreigners don't think too much of the irish and are a bit pissed off due to the "No" outcome of the Nice treaty.