Guess Wha? HWCH time again. (2 Viewers)

[washingcattle]

the industry is not dead.

Do you know anyone working for or signed to a record label ?

 

[ann post]

Do you know anyone working for or signed to a record label ?

that question is not going to disprove any point in my above post.

 

[washingcattle]

Perhaps not but


Your post related to
A. Bands that were around 10 years ago at least.
B. Music videos etc when was the last time you watched a music video ? I mean without actually looking for one on the internet ?
C. Major labels buying schmooze time on the radio for Lady Gaga fair enough I'm sure this happens but seriously who the fuck cares about Lady Fucking Gaga ? Comparing her to any band worth there salt anywhere is like comparing owning a cat to Cats the fucking musical.

Basically there was a time when bands and the record industry related to each other in symbiotic kind of way. There is no market for bands anymore, and there is no need for a band to have anything to do with the established industry any more. The music industry as such has fuck all interest in anything that is listened to by anyone old enough to download illeagally because they can't actually sell it. Bands might as well face up to that fact too.

So what are you left with X-factor where you pay to vote for one act over another. Boy Bands because kids can't work Pirate Bay. and the return of the crooner because the middle aged can't work Pirate Bay either.

And that's it isn't it ? I mean apart from the reunion of the 80's bands to pull a few quid from pockets of the newly middle aged. Am I missing something ? I mean are there other things out there selling massive amounts like the Beastie Boys or Nirvana used to?

Seriously I'd say 90% of everyone I know is in a band and I doubt one of them has ever even seen an industry type, ever. I haven't seen a Dodo or a Tasmanian Tiger either.

Seriously post here if you've ever had any dealings with "the industry" and by that I mean an A&R guy or someone who works for a non DIY
run Label. Like Sony or something.

 

[Deleted member 3435]

But would you not include booking agents, band managers, tour managers, stage managers, sound engineers and all that type of thing to be part of the music industry?

Personally, I think we're only going to be free of the evils of the music industry when everyone is working for favours, right?

 

[Deleted member 3435]

Wikipedia:

The music industry or music business consists of the companies and individuals that make money by creating and selling music. Among the many individuals and organizations that operate within the industry are: the musicians who compose and perform the music; the companies and professionals who create and sell recorded music (e.g., music publishers, producers, studios, engineers, record labels, retail and online music stores, performance rights organizations); those that present live music performances (booking agents, promoters, music venues, road crew); professionals who assist musicians with their music careers (talent managers, business managers, entertainment lawyers); those who broadcast music (satellite, internet and broadcast radio); journalists; educators; musical instrument manufacturers; as well as many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_industry

 

[Deleted member 3435]

Ann Post is dead on about radio too.

That's why I feel the single biggest boost and probably the only effective thing to be done to help Irish Musicians would be for radio to play a lot more Irish music.

It's not going to do that any time soon, though.

 

[ann post]

i was mostly responding to

There is no industry, there's no money, there's very few opertunities for bands to do anything unless it's completely DIY.

ok/go are a present day example of a band making money from advertising. there was also great uproar on thumped when cathy davey advertised a car once aswell. and when some metal band festival was car related.
your point is that 'its not 1992' which i'm not debating. i'm more into accepting that there is an industry but it might not be essentially the 1992 a&r food chain, and all my points stand in the present day. there is an industry that DIY'ers are part of and its video, advertising, equipment sponsorship, tv placement. i can think of 3-4 thumpeders or exthumpeders who have tv placement. i know two people with sponsorship deals who are off on tour at the mo, and they are DIY people, i've played with them for years - they are DIY but working for a company, thats industry. if you find a video on the web you have probably used 'google' which is an advertising company a million times the size of MTV, and it owns the fucking video company that you go to. basically: music+huge companies+money trails=industry. its not gonna be 1992 again, but what has changed is very subtle when you look closely.
To say the industry is dead because its not 1992 is an indie ostrich maneuver. i liked the cats analogy.

 

[GO]

+1 For the cats analogy.

Excellent thread.

Could use more knackerbashing though

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Seriously post here if you've ever had any dealings with "the industry" and by that I mean an A&R guy or someone who works for a non DIY
run Label. Like Sony or something.

About 20 years ago I was in a band that played "Belfast Rocks Again" I suppose it was something like HWCH in that it was supposed to encourage the industry scouts to check out local bands(all on the back of Therapy? of course) I really wasn't arsed about it and our "promo photo" was one of our friends stage diving and our bio was one line. Anyway,we were 2nd last on and none of the bands had had any real response,we played a blinder,even if I do say so,and the place went nuts,afterwords someone from Sony approached me but I told him I didn't care. 2 weeks later the reviews were in NME or Sounds or whatever and we were the only band ommited from the reviews.


Cool story bro etc etc.

 

[ann post]

Ann Post is dead on about radio too.

my local, in letterk, plays the radio at night. three times in about a year the person next to me has asked 'whats that tune on the radio'. in all three cases, it was an act that i'd know via @thumped. lastnight it was mumblin deaf lo, previous to that it was adebisi shank and tieranniesaur. it just gives a taste of what ireland would be like if the prime timers were allowed to play non major label paid-in-the-door type music.

 

[washingcattle]

But would you not include booking agents, band managers, tour managers, stage managers, sound engineers and all that type of thing to be part of the music industry?

Personally, I think we're only going to be free of the evils of the music industry when everyone is working for favours, right?

No I don't believe in doing anything for free. A venue needs a booking agent a band does not. Tour manager ? When It take 5 days to tour Ireland? Stage manager ? Eh What ? and as for sound engineers there has to be a whole thread elsewhere dedicated to them so in short their all irrelivant.

Wikipedia:

The music industry or music business consists of the companies and individuals that make money by creating and selling music. Among the many individuals and organizations that operate within the industry are: the musicians who compose and perform the music; the companies and professionals who create and sell recorded music (e.g., music publishers, producers, studios, engineers, record labels, retail and online music stores, performance rights organizations); those that present live music performances (booking agents, promoters, music venues, road crew); professionals who assist musicians with their music careers (talent managers, business managers, entertainment lawyers); those who broadcast music (satellite, internet and broadcast radio); journalists; educators; musical instrument manufacturers; as well as many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_industry

Again if you look at Ireland all of that is pretty much irrelivant.

Ann Post is dead on about radio too.

That's why I feel the single biggest boost and probably the only effective thing to be done to help Irish Musicians would be for radio to play a lot more Irish music.

It's not going to do that any time soon, though.

i was mostly responding to



ok/go are a present day example of a band making money from advertising. there was also great uproar on thumped when cathy davey advertised a car once aswell. and when some metal band festival was car related.
your point is that 'its not 1992' which i'm not debating. i'm more into accepting that there is an industry but it might not be essentially the 1992 a&r food chain, and all my points stand in the present day. there is an industry that DIY'ers are part of and its video, advertising, equipment sponsorship, tv placement. i can think of 3-4 thumpeders or exthumpeders who have tv placement. i know two people with sponsorship deals who are off on tour at the mo, and they are DIY people, i've played with them for years - they are DIY but working for a company, thats industry. if you find a video on the web you have probably used 'google' which is an advertising company a million times the size of MTV, and it owns the fucking video company that you go to. basically: music+huge companies+money trails=industry. its not gonna be 1992 again, but what has changed is very subtle when you look closely.
To say the industry is dead because its not 1992 is an indie ostrich maneuver. i liked the cats analogy.

And again the radio remains utterly irrelivant because it remains suckling at the tit of the aforementioned industry which simply does not exist in Ireland. As for subtle change as far as what "we" do (i use that term "we" loosely, but I mean we as in musicians) we've actually all existed outside of any recognised industry for years without really demanding that the old systems by which we get music i.e TV and Radio catch up with what exists on our island instead of force feeding us bullshit which no one really cares about at all. I mean we own RTE we fucking pay for it. It's supposed to be ours it's supposed to reflect our culture. It doesn't.

John Peel would spin in his grave if he read the last few posts on this thread.

 

[ann post]

John Peel would spin in his grave if he read the last few posts on this thread.

now that's just lazy posting. essentially you are saying there isn't an industry and proving it by denying it exists no matter how much evidence is put in front of you. what you also should probably absorb is that just because i'm proving it exists doesn't mean i like it or think its right, i'm just a realist.

perceptions are everything in music and everything to musicians. people want to be independent culturally so they deny the existence of the mainstream manufactured stuff for so long that they forget it exists, thats fine and healthy so far as i'm concerned but it doesn't stop it existing. those people are maybe 10% of ireland, 300,000 or so people across all ages who probably all have creative outlets to keep them ticking. the rest of the country, when they say 'alternative' they mean that they like muse or lady gaga as opposed to garth brooks and rihanna. the luxury of living in a city is that there are enough people around to mine a molehill where you can pretend that 90% of the world doesn't happen. repeating the word 'irrelevant' in the molehill doesn't make it stop happening though.

Come to copperfaces or any mainstream club with me and the rurals next time i'm in dublin, bring a pen and paper, write down what music comes on over the course of the night and then sit in front of 2fm or todayFM for 12 hours and see how many you can tick off. the majority of people are happy with that much music being in the world. I suspect you are more artist than musician, i always make a definition between the two because an artist will basically starve to make art (be it musical or otherwise) happen where a musician is like a brickie, they don't care what they are building so long as they get a cheque at some point of the week, and thats what the majority of working people can relate to.

the indie ostrich part was a bit of a dick move on my behalf, i do think that both indie and mainstream are both guilty of it though. i know a lad on facebook who thinks the red hot chilli's are alternative- just try and fathom that for a few minutes and multiply it by how many awful fucking albums they sell in a year... what i'm saying is that ideally 90% of ireland should be aware that 10% exist, and the 10% should probably stop denying the 90% exist too. for that to happen virals, radio, tv, computer games and adverts are basically the only points of access and the irrelevant industry that you are keen to pretend doesn't exist has all these deep, deep in pocket for the most part.

 

[washingcattle]

now that's just lazy posting. essentially you are saying there isn't an industry and proving it by denying it exists no matter how much evidence is put in front of you. what you also should probably absorb is that just because i'm proving it exists doesn't mean i like it or think its right, i'm just a realist.

perceptions are everything in music and everything to musicians. people want to be independent culturally so they deny the existence of the mainstream manufactured stuff for so long that they forget it exists, thats fine and healthy so far as i'm concerned but it doesn't stop it existing. those people are maybe 10% of ireland, 300,000 or so people across all ages who probably all have creative outlets to keep them ticking. the rest of the country, when they say 'alternative' they mean that they like muse or lady gaga as opposed to garth brooks and rihanna. the luxury of living in a city is that there are enough people around to mine a molehill where you can pretend that 90% of the world doesn't happen. repeating the word 'irrelevant' in the molehill doesn't make it stop happening though.

Come to copperfaces or any mainstream club with me and the rurals next time i'm in dublin, bring a pen and paper, write down what music comes on over the course of the night and then sit in front of 2fm or todayFM for 12 hours and see how many you can tick off. the majority of people are happy with that much music being in the world. I suspect you are more artist than musician, i always make a definition between the two because an artist will basically starve to make art (be it musical or otherwise) happen where a musician is like a brickie, they don't care what they are building so long as they get a cheque at some point of the week, and thats what the majority of working people can relate to.

the indie ostrich part was a bit of a dick move on my behalf, i do think that both indie and mainstream are both guilty of it though. i know a lad on facebook who thinks the red hot chilli's are alternative- just try and fathom that for a few minutes and multiply it by how many awful fucking albums they sell in a year... what i'm saying is that ideally 90% of ireland should be aware that 10% exist, and the 10% should probably stop denying the 90% exist too. for that to happen virals, radio, tv, computer games and adverts are basically the only points of access and the irrelevant industry that you are keen to pretend doesn't exist has all these deep, deep in pocket for the most part.

I said it was irrelivent because it doesn't relate at all to any musicians. Radio doesn't matter, TV doesn't matter, Copperfaced fucking Jacks doesn't matter in the slightest.

Look at it this way you are a butcher, you cut and eat steaks you sell steaks in your shop. You and all your friends are also butchers you all cut and eat and sell steaks. Then there's Tescos it only sells absolute shite ready meal rubbish. Most people eat this rubbish but what can you do it's Tesco. Fair enough. Now imagine that there's a cookery show on the T.V some Mitchelian star type knob. This is a show which deals with steak, it's a show about food for food lovers essentially it's aimed directly at you. Someone in the food business so to speak. This show airs on your national broadcaster and by all intents and purposes you pay for it. He's doing a show about steak and somehow all he manages to present is the butchers section of fucking Tesco. You'd be fucking livid right ?

Yes you would and furthermore there's no fucking way you'll ever find a cookery show being filmed in a fucking Tesco. Because cookery shows know their fucking audience. And that's my point a cookery show set in a Tescos would be fucking irrelivant. Look the people who buy Lady Gaga Records probably buy less records in one year than we do a week. so 300,000 people buying lets say 25 albums a year actually evens out the market. The mass audience aspect is irrelivent.

Look I'm going to put this very simply there are no, or next to no, Radio or television shows aimed at the people who buy the most records per person in Ireland. One person replied to say that they have met or even seen an "industry" type ever and that's in a thread that has over 1000 views.

All the examples you've given while true from one perspective are absolutely irrelivant when it comes to being a musician in Ireland. Which is exactly what I've been talking about for the past 2 pages. There i no fucking industry. We're exactly like brickies, when was the last time you saw one actually fucking building anything ?

 

[washingcattle]

now that's just lazy posting. essentially you are saying there isn't an industry and proving it by denying it exists no matter how much evidence is put in front of you. what you also should probably absorb is that just because i'm proving it exists doesn't mean i like it or think its right, i'm just a realist.

perceptions are everything in music and everything to musicians. people want to be independent culturally so they deny the existence of the mainstream manufactured stuff for so long that they forget it exists, thats fine and healthy so far as i'm concerned but it doesn't stop it existing. those people are maybe 10% of ireland, 300,000 or so people across all ages who probably all have creative outlets to keep them ticking. the rest of the country, when they say 'alternative' they mean that they like muse or lady gaga as opposed to garth brooks and rihanna. the luxury of living in a city is that there are enough people around to mine a molehill where you can pretend that 90% of the world doesn't happen. repeating the word 'irrelevant' in the molehill doesn't make it stop happening though.

Come to copperfaces or any mainstream club with me and the rurals next time i'm in dublin, bring a pen and paper, write down what music comes on over the course of the night and then sit in front of 2fm or todayFM for 12 hours and see how many you can tick off. the majority of people are happy with that much music being in the world. I suspect you are more artist than musician, i always make a definition between the two because an artist will basically starve to make art (be it musical or otherwise) happen where a musician is like a brickie, they don't care what they are building so long as they get a cheque at some point of the week, and thats what the majority of working people can relate to.

the indie ostrich part was a bit of a dick move on my behalf, i do think that both indie and mainstream are both guilty of it though. i know a lad on facebook who thinks the red hot chilli's are alternative- just try and fathom that for a few minutes and multiply it by how many awful fucking albums they sell in a year... what i'm saying is that ideally 90% of ireland should be aware that 10% exist, and the 10% should probably stop denying the 90% exist too. for that to happen virals, radio, tv, computer games and adverts are basically the only points of access and the irrelevant industry that you are keen to pretend doesn't exist has all these deep, deep in pocket for the most part.

I said it was irrelivent because it doesn't relate at all to any musicians. Radio doesn't matter, TV doesn't matter, Copperfaced fucking Jacks doesn't matter in the slightest.

Look at it this way you are a butcher, you cut and eat steaks you sell steaks in your shop. You and all your friends are also butchers you all cut and eat and sell steaks. Then there's Tescos it only sells absolute shite ready meal rubbish. Most people eat this rubbish but what can you do it's Tesco. Fair enough. Now imagine that there's a cookery show on the T.V some Mitchelian star type knob. This is a show which deals with steak, it's a show about food for food lovers essentially it's aimed directly at you. Someone in the food business so to speak. This show airs on your national broadcaster and by all intents and purposes you pay for it. He's doing a show about steak and somehow all he manages to present is the butchers section of fucking Tesco. You'd be fucking livid right ?

Yes you would and furthermore there's no fucking way you'll ever find a cookery show being filmed in a fucking Tesco. Because cookery shows know their fucking audience. And that's my point a cookery show set in a Tescos would be fucking irrelivant. Look the people who buy Lady Gaga Records probably buy less records in one year than we do a week. so 300,000 people buying lets say 25 albums a year actually evens out the market. The mass audience aspect is irrelivent.

Look I'm going to put this very simply there are no, or next to no, Radio or television shows aimed at the people who buy the most records per person in Ireland. One person replied to say that they have met or even seen an "industry" type ever and that's in a thread that has over 1000 views.

All the examples you've given while true from one perspective are absolutely irrelivant when it comes to being a musician in Ireland. Which is exactly what I've been talking about for the past 2 pages. There i no fucking industry. We're exactly like brickies, when was the last time you saw one actually fucking building anything ?

 

[ann post]

I said it was irrelivent because it doesn't relate at all to any musicians. Radio doesn't matter, TV doesn't matter, Copperfaced fucking Jacks doesn't matter in the slightest.

the script are number one in ireland this week on downloads, via radio play and tv ads on rte both analog and online. if its music and making money then why is it irrelevant to being an industry? its happening right now.

This show airs on your national broadcaster and by all intents and purposes you pay for it. He's doing a show about steak and somehow all he manages to present is the butchers section of fucking Tesco.

today fm and 2fm, two largest stations in ireland both have two dedicated alternative shows that have literally played about half the acts if not more that are on thumped (me excluded but i don't send anything to radio at present), and in cases some of those acts have graduated to prime time play through it - in the case of todayfm its pretty ballsy as they are at the mercy of advertising. RnaG has the best late night music show in the country and you wont hear a millisecond of popular or chart music on it. three members of thumped have had shows on 2xm playing what they know best.

Look the people who buy Lady Gaga Records probably buy less records in one year than we do a week

its not records any more, its singles, keep an eye on the itunes singles charts for a few weeks and come back to me on that.

Radio or television shows aimed at the people who buy the most records per person in Ireland

there are two teen music shows on tg4, rte still runs other voices and a melee of trad shows, if there was ever a time i got into music it was as a teen, also run of the mill crap like 'cook at someone's house and have a fight' have had bands on incidentally. also the shows don't actually need to be music shows if you are the theme tune or the breakup song or the digger wrecking the housing estate music. teens always have and always will buy the most 'records'. and it is aimed at them.

There i no fucking industry. We're exactly like brickies, when was the last time you saw one actually fucking building anything ?

neil hannon, lisa hannigan, larla o loinard, fidil, the henry girls, imelda may, bressie, ham sandwich, delorentoes, cathy davey, jape, the script, two door cinema club, the coronas, daniel o donnell, andy irivine, planxty and related projects, rubberbandits, declan o rourke, sinead o connor, eleanor mcevoy, lisa mchugh there are more, many more. as i've said before, if you want to deny that exists, you can, fine, but it does not stop it existing.


the question 'is there an industry' boils down to 'are there people working full time in music, making music, in ireland' and the answer is yes.

 

[hermie]

neil hannon, lisa hannigan, larla o loinard, fidil, the henry girls, imelda may, bressie, ham sandwich, delorentoes, cathy davey, jape, the script, two door cinema club, the coronas, daniel o donnell, andy irivine, planxty and related projects, rubberbandits, declan o rourke, sinead o connor, eleanor mcevoy, lisa mchugh there are more, many more. as i've said before, if you want to deny that exists, you can, fine, but it does not stop it existing.

How many of those are middle-aged or past their sell-by date? And of those remaining many, probably the majority, have ties to old industry elite and/or have had to go abroad to garner success.

And are you seriously suggesting the likes of Tom Dunne, Alison Curtis or whoever have played over half the bands on Thumped??

If there's an indigenous music industry represented by the media on a national level it's barely existent.

 

[ann post]

How many of those are middle-aged or past their sell-by date? And of those remaining many, probably the majority, have ties to old industry elite and/or have had to go abroad to garner success.
And are you seriously suggesting the likes of Tom Dunne, Alison Curtis or whoever have played over half the bands on Thumped??
If there's an indigenous music industry represented by the media on a national level it's barely existent.

i'd say half the bands presently on thumped, no point asking for a show of hands but yous know who yous are. see also paul mccloone show. 'ties to old industry elite' is an admission that the industry still exists by the by. about half those artists could be looked at that way, but in the same breath, i'm sure andy irvine has been described as 'past his sell by date' a few times already, only to just continue doing his own thing well. or you could consider that will.i.am is about 38. see also 'solar taxi-gung ho' from wexford or somewhere, they are very new and in heavy rotation. If you think there is a musician from any country on earth that doesn't go abroad to garner success you really are asking a lot from an english fluent country this size. everyone in the english speaking world who has enough clout and tunes and appeal to tour outside of home is doing it, are we meant to be some special case?

 

[Stan Bowles]

i was hoping to the see run-ons in that list. whats the story with them? the song on the last popical island comp is great but the internet isnt coughing up any more goods.

The Run Ons are, erm, 'in development'. Fair few songs on the go, we just need to make the time to records them. Hopefully we'll have something else out soon.

And as for playing live, well we're open to offers! We're not quite mach fit at the moment though.

 

[washingcattle]

the script are number one in ireland this week on downloads, via radio play and tv ads on rte both analog and online. if its music and making money then why is it irrelevant to being an industry? its happening right now.

Fairly sure they got their deal while living in the states no?

today fm and 2fm, two largest stations in ireland both have two dedicated alternative shows that have literally played about half the acts if not more that are on thumped (me excluded but i don't send anything to radio at present), and in cases some of those acts have graduated to prime time play through it - in the case of todayfm its pretty ballsy as they are at the mercy of advertising. RnaG has the best late night music show in the country and you wont hear a millisecond of popular or chart music on it. three members of thumped have had shows on 2xm playing what they know best.

I don't agree with this but since I've long since given up on the radio I have little amunition. There is of course Phantom which is "the industry" incarnate. TV wise the TnaG thing was okay, Whatever the other thing was called was another case of "curating" gone to the lowest common denominator. It was like they were trying to sell Kerry as a holiday destination to slightly alternative leaning middle of the road acts rather than an actual music show.

its not records any more, its singles, keep an eye on the itunes singles charts for a few weeks and come back to me on that.

Singles have and always will be the tool of the devil. It's how old men on the top floor utilise young men and women to sell pieces of plastic to children. It's like paedophilia and child slavery all rolled into one so fuck it again it's irrelivent when we talk about musicians and what muscians actually do.

there are two teen music shows on tg4, rte still runs other voices and a melee of trad shows, if there was ever a time i got into music it was as a teen, also run of the mill crap like 'cook at someone's house and have a fight' have had bands on incidentally. also the shows don't actually need to be music shows if you are the theme tune or the breakup song or the digger wrecking the housing estate music. teens always have and always will buy the most 'records'. and it is aimed at them.

Alrady covered this but the last great TV show about music was John Peels sounds of the suburbs. and that should be a model for all music broadcasting

neil hannon, lisa hannigan, larla o loinard, fidil, the henry girls, imelda may, bressie, ham sandwich, delorentoes, cathy davey, jape, the script, two door cinema club, the coronas, daniel o donnell, andy irivine, planxty and related projects, rubberbandits, declan o rourke, sinead o connor, eleanor mcevoy, lisa mchugh there are more, many more. as i've said before, if you want to deny that exists, you can, fine, but it does not stop it existing.

Like Hermie said. Plus they're either old or middle of the road or utter shite so fuck that list.

the question 'is there an industry' boils down to 'are there people working full time in music, making music, in ireland' and the answer is yes.

I have never said that people shouldn't earn money. The fact is that the vast majority of people earning money from music are not musicians. We can change this. We really can. I swear. It needs to die and it's death will be for the better for all of us.

Finally because my lady has had enough of me typing a message to yougsters starting a band

Get a real job.

Invest your wages in your band

Forget about becoming a rock star

They don't exist.

It's over people. Lets move on.

 

[ann post]

[video=youtube_share;BHbZD68SGoE]http://youtu.be/BHbZD68SGoE[/video]