Government to collapse tonight? (2 Viewers)

[avernus]

personally, I don't believe in any of the socialist party candidates. this may be the result of staring at the depressing election posters of Clare Daly my whole life and wishing I or she was dead, however it seems that they're all fist in the air when it suits them but in actuality are of little substance. going to mountjoy for protesting the goddamn bin taxes was hardly noble - it was far more a careerist manoeuver than standing up for what they believed in. and if it was in fact what they believed in, fuck them - because anyone who opposed it is obviously completely ignorant to the huge advantages of such a tax and more concerned by the few quid they have to part with every week for disposing of their 400+ nappies and empty beer cans.

 

[oh shit]

more concerned by the few quid they have to part with every week for disposing of their 400+ nappies and empty beer cans.

!
maybe you oppose socialist candidates because of your obvious hatred for poor people? jesus. christ.

 

[oh shit]

em.. the u.k.?

total: 646 seats
labour: 353 seats

am i missing something here?

yeah, you've just quoted their number of successful candidates, i think ngglbths saying that only one party in ireland is actually capable of securing a majority of seats because the others don't field enough candidates. the british conservatives contest pretty much every seat don't they? oh, except here in norn iron where we have no say over who governs us, but yknow, parliamentary politics is a bad 17th century joke anyway.

 

[avernus]

!
maybe you oppose socialist candidates because of your obvious hatred for poor people? jesus. christ.

you might be onto something..

 

[avernus]

!
maybe you oppose socialist candidates because of your obvious hatred for poor people? jesus. christ.

Incidentally, if that was you who called me a prick in a de-repping - and I think it was - you have a lot of growing up to do.

Just because I believe some socialist candidates to be disingenuous and make some throwaway comment about the kind of people who oppose progressive taxes does not mean a) that I'm a prick or b) that I hate the poor.

Anyway, whatever. Jerk.

 

[Polo]

personally, I don't believe in any of the socialist party candidates.

As in you think they don't exist, like God?

this may be the result of staring at the depressing election posters of Clare Daly my whole life and wishing I or she was dead, however it seems that they're all fist in the air when it suits them but in actuality are of little substance. going to mountjoy for protesting the goddamn bin taxes was hardly noble - it was far more a careerist manoeuver than standing up for what they believed in. and if it was in fact what they believed in, fuck them - because anyone who opposed it is obviously completely ignorant to the huge advantages of such a tax and more concerned by the few quid they have to part with every week for disposing of their 400+ nappies and empty beer cans.

This is the kind of thing that depresses me. Not just the sneering attitude towards working class people (nappies and beer cans, Jesus fucking Christ!) but the willingness to sound off about people campaigning on an issue without taking the time to listen to their arguments or reasons first.

Going to Mountjoy was indeed "noble", to use you odd terminology, because it was done for a cause Higgins, Daly and the other people jailed believed in. In the cases of Higgins and Daly there was an additional factor - they had encouraged and organised people to fight against the charges, to refuse to back down, and it would have been pretty cowardly of them if they had themselves backed down at the first sign of personal consequences. No doubt people like yourself would be on here giving out about how they talked the talk but when it came down to it, bottled it and left other people to face the music.

But the issue is why did they believe it was important to oppose the bin tax? Was it because Higgins (who is I think childless and doesn't as far as In know wear nappies himself but may well drink cans of beer) resented paying for his empties to be taken away? Well, if you'd taken the time to actually read all those anti-bin tax campaign leaflets which came through your door, you'd know that there were some pretty damn good reasons to oppose the bin tax.

Firstly, the bin tax far from being a "progressive tax" as you claim in a later post, is the very definition of a regressive tax - ie a tax which is not linked to your ability to pay. Flat rate (including pay per use) taxes mean shifting the burden of taxation away from things like corporation tax or income tax, which hit those with the most money, and onto people with lower incomes. Now you might have a Thatcherite poll-tax-is-good-enough-for-the-plebs attitude, but socialists definitely don't. And while there was a waiver introduced which meant that the very poorest people don't have to pay, as soon as the system is privatised those waivers disappear.

Which brings me on the second point. The bin tax is the first step towards the privatisation of another public service, refuse collection. All across the country where the tax has been introduced it has, quickly in some cases, more slowly in others, been followed by privatisation. That is the government agenda on this service as on pretty much every other one. The bin tax introduces a seperate income stream, directly linked to bin collection, and easily taken over by a private company. First the bin tax, then the sell-off. And again, you like the shower of shits who write for the Sunday Independent might think that privatisation is a good think, but socialists like Higgins and Daly sure as hell don't.

The anti-bin tax campaigns argued, correctly, that the tax was being introduced at an artificially low rate and that it would go up year after year. They also argued that if the bin tax was accepted that other flat rate local taxes would follow, as the government sought to further shift the burden of taxation away from the rich and towards people on lower incomes, and sure enough the government are now talking about reintroducing the water tax (which incidentally, Higgins and the other anti-bin tax campaigners actually got rid of last time around). If you think that the privatisation of a public service and a massive shift in the tax burden towards poorer people isn't a big deal, then fair enough. I may think you are a wanker, but you are entitled to your opinion. You can hardly expect people like the Socialist Party to agree with you though. And that doesn't make them "careerist". It makes them consistent.

 

[broken arm]

Hello Bin Tax

 

[Bellatrix]

Oh my.

Well, name-calling and whatnot aside, it's nice to see the Communards coming out in support of a comrade. Don't get me wrong, Viva La Sozialismus or whatever, but Higgins isn't the kind of socialist leader I admire.

Sure, he was willing to go to Mountjoy rather than back down on the question of bin charges and if, in the process, he gained a huge amount of media attention for a fledgling political party, then fair enough. And sure, if we can get Clare Daly's daughter on the Joe Duffy show every day to talk about how proud she is of mammy, then great. It's all for a good cause, after all.

I agree that the Irish electorate needs to be shaken up (although there's a difference between informing and inspiring and rabble-rousing) and I agree with many of Higgins' policies but, ultimately, he's not really my bag.

 

[oh shit]

Incidentally, if that was you who called me a prick in a de-repping - and I think it was - you have a lot of growing up to do.

Just because I believe some socialist candidates to be disingenuous and make some throwaway comment about the kind of people who oppose progressive taxes does not mean a) that I'm a prick or b) that I hate the poor.

Anyway, whatever. Jerk.

clearly i'm not the only one who thinks you're full of shit, because it wasn't me.

hey, at least you couldn't look any more stupid than the time you threatened to walk into janer's pub and set him on fire.

it's funny how self-righteous you got about someone making childish jokes on a forum, while you regard it as perfectly acceptable to make "throwaway" remarks based on your no-brain class orientated political leanings.

to sum, shut up.

 

[Polo]

Higgins isn't the kind of socialist leader I admire.

That's fair enough, but who is the kind of socialist leader you admire? Ireland's not exactly buried under mounds of them you know.

 

[avernus]

As in you think they don't exist, like God?

This is the kind of thing that depresses me. Not just the sneering attitude towards working class people (nappies and beer cans, Jesus fucking Christ!) but the willingness to sound off about people campaigning on an issue without taking the time to listen to their arguments or reasons first.

Going to Mountjoy was indeed "noble", to use you odd terminology, because it was done for a cause Higgins, Daly and the other people jailed believed in. In the cases of Higgins and Daly there was an additional factor - they had encouraged and organised people to fight against the charges, to refuse to back down, and it would have been pretty cowardly of them if they had themselves backed down at the first sign of personal consequences. No doubt people like yourself would be on here giving out about how they talked the talk but when it came down to it, bottled it and left other people to face the music.

But the issue is why did they believe it was important to oppose the bin tax? Was it because Higgins (who is I think childless and doesn't as far as In know wear nappies himself but may well drink cans of beer) resented paying for his empties to be taken away? Well, if you'd taken the time to actually read all those anti-bin tax campaign leaflets which came through your door, you'd know that there were some pretty damn good reasons to oppose the bin tax.

Firstly, the bin tax far from being a "progressive tax" as you claim in a later post, is the very definition of a regressive tax - ie a tax which is not linked to your ability to pay. Flat rate (including pay per use) taxes mean shifting the burden of taxation away from things like corporation tax or income tax, which hit those with the most money, and onto people with lower incomes. Now you might have a Thatcherite poll-tax-is-good-enough-for-the-plebs attitude, but socialists definitely don't. And while there was a waiver introduced which meant that the very poorest people don't have to pay, as soon as the system is privatised those waivers disappear.

Which brings me on the second point. The bin tax is the first step towards the privatisation of another public service, refuse collection. All across the country where the tax has been introduced it has, quickly in some cases, more slowly in others, been followed by privatisation. That is the government agenda on this service as on pretty much every other one. The bin tax introduces a seperate income stream, directly linked to bin collection, and easily taken over by a private company. First the bin tax, then the sell-off. And again, you like the shower of shits who write for the Sunday Independent might think that privatisation is a good think, but socialists like Higgins and Daly sure as hell don't.

The anti-bin tax campaigns argued, correctly, that the tax was being introduced at an artificially low rate and that it would go up year after year. They also argued that if the bin tax was accepted that other flat rate local taxes would follow, as the government sought to further shift the burden of taxation away from the rich and towards people on lower incomes, and sure enough the government are now talking about reintroducing the water tax (which incidentally, Higgins and the other anti-bin tax campaigners actually got rid of last time around). If you think that the privatisation of a public service and a massive shift in the tax burden towards poorer people isn't a big deal, then fair enough. I may think you are a wanker, but you are entitled to your opinion. You can hardly expect people like the Socialist Party to agree with you though. And that doesn't make them "careerist". It makes them consistent.

first, calm down. second, fair points - bar the retarded god related comment. I don't agree that the privatisation of refuse collection is a good thing and I certainly don't think the burden of taxes should be shifted onto people of lower incomes. I definitely think the taxing of bin collection could and indeed should have been done better, but I don't think the notion of bin taxes is a bad thing. the reasoning behind them (or at least a by-product of them) was to increase recycling and lower the amount of waste produced in this country.

anyway fuck this. you obviously feel a lot stronger about this than I do and are willing to lash out and be an obnoxious cunt as a result. go to jail. apologies to oh shit, who apparently did not call me a prick but did overreact.

 

[Bellatrix]

That's fair enough, but who is the kind of socialist leader you admire? Ireland's not exactly buried under mounds of them you know.

I know. I like aspects of various Irish politicians - Howlin, Rabbitte, Bacik, the aforementioned Comrade Higgins, Michael fuckin' D - but none absolutely.

Which is why I'm amazed when someone can say outright who they'd give their first preference to (and well in advance of a general election).

 

[taubstumm]

Which is why I'm amazed when someone can say outright who they'd give their first preference to (and well in advance of a general election).

i'd wager that on any given day, a good 70-80% of the electorate could say outright who they'll give their first preference to at the next election, if they were willing to tell you. surely that's obvious.

 

[Goff]

Which is why I'm amazed when someone can say outright who they'd give their first preference to (and well in advance of a general election).

At the time, there was a possibility that it wasn't WELL IN ADVANCE of a general election. Still might happen sooner then we think.

And it's always worth choosing your first preference before they try to bribe us with their budget.

Still, it's a pity we can't take the best bits and make one decent politico.

On the Privatisation front: No good will ever come of it.

 

[avernus]

clearly i'm not the only one who thinks you're full of shit, because it wasn't me.

yeah, I gathered.

hey, at least you couldn't look any more stupid than the time you threatened to walk into janer's pub and set him on fire.

again, a joke. your cliché teenage rage against the machine attitude may not be able to deal with humour, but that's not my damn problem.

it's funny how self-righteous you got about someone making childish jokes on a forum, while you regard it as perfectly acceptable to make "throwaway" remarks based on your no-brain class orientated political leanings.

to sum, shut up.

you're a painful bore, but I can see why you'd relate the two - and so, I apologise for the throwaway remark. It was, afterall, a throwaway remark.


now, go back to vibrating with disproportionate rage. I'm sure there's someone somewhere making a slightly misinformed comment that might need your immediate attention and bile.

 

[Squiggle]

Still, it's a pity we can't take the best bits and make one decent politico.

That Frankensteinian creation would get my first preference.

 

[taubstumm]

hey, this thread has developed a nasty taste. stop it stop it stop it.

here:

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

now, go back to being nice to eachother and respecting other points of view and mutual respect and blah de blah. some people are saying interesting things below all the shouting.

ok? ok.

 

[Polo]

first, calm down.

eh? I'm perfectly calm. One of the problems with this here internet thing is that it doesn't convey emotion very well. Any argument which you express in strong terms can come across as blood vessel bursting rage.

second, fair points - bar the retarded god related comment. I don't agree that the privatisation of refuse collection is a good thing and I certainly don't think the burden of taxes should be shifted onto people of lower incomes.

Alright, it looks like we agree on this much.

I definitely think the taxing of bin collection could and indeed should have been done better, but I don't think the notion of bin taxes is a bad thing. the reasoning behind them (or at least a by-product of them) was to increase recycling and lower the amount of waste produced in this country.

It may be that someone could come up with a bin collection tax that would be a good idea. I don't know, to be frank, and I'm not sure how it could be done. Either way that's a different argument. I'm talking about the bin tax which was actually introduced in Ireland, not an imaginary bin tax which isn't about privatisation and fucking people on low incomes.

My problem with your attitude (at least as expressed in your earlier post) was that one the one hand you didn't seem to have paid any attention to the anti-bin tax arguments, while on the other you had swallowed the governments arguments hook line and sinker. So you were slagging off people who went to jail for a cause without seeming to know that their opposition to the bin tax was grounded in a perfectly reasonable opposition to privatisation and shifting the tax burden onto people with lower incomes. And you were (and on this point at least still are) repeating the government line about the bin tax having been introduced for environmental reasons, without subjecting that claim to the same cynical assessment.

Think about it for a second. Do you really think the government gives a flying fuck about the environment? The same government which allowed the only glass recycling plant in the country to shut down even while it was claiming that the bin tax was to encourage recycling? The same government which can't be holed to put in place recycling centres which people don't have to drive to? The same government which is trying to put one of Europe's biggest incinerators right beside a residential area (coincidentally a working class area)? The same government which allowed the supermarkets to opt out of their responsibility to accept back excess packaging, after the anti-bin tax campaigns encouraged people to start returning it? You are aware that the bin tax, as initially introduced, didn't actually include any pay by weight or per bag element at all, and that such an element was only introduced because of the huge stink made by the anti-bin tax campaigns? That last fact by itself gives the lie to any notion that the tax was about the environment.

By the way, the overwhelming majority of landfill waste in Ireland is produced by construction, large farming, retail and other businesses. Business does have to pay a contribution towards removing that waste, but the amount they pay is a fraction of their percentage of waste creation. The bin tax is, in part, also about getting the ordinary punter to subsidise the disposal of the waste created by business.

anyway fuck this. you obviously feel a lot stronger about this than I do and are willing to lash out and be an obnoxious cunt as a result. go to jail.

What the fuck?

 

[avernus]

What the fuck?

sorry, Polo. turns out I am a prick. go figure.

 

[Polo]

I know. I like aspects of various Irish politicians - Howlin, Rabbitte, Bacik, the aforementioned Comrade Higgins, Michael fuckin' D - but none absolutely.

I asked about socialists, them people are in Labour!

Seriously, I have some time for Ivana Bacik but she's more a well meaning liberal rather than any kind of socialist. Rabbitte can suck my balls until all the hairs come off.

Which is why I'm amazed when someone can say outright who they'd give their first preference to (and well in advance of a general election).

Up until this election I always knew who I would vote for - there was a decent left candidate out my way, although she hadn't a hope of winning. This time I haven't a clue. I've moved house and frankly I'd rather gnaw my own hand off then use it to vote for most of the shower of bastards around here (Dublin Central).