Feminist Walking Tour - March 8th (3 Viewers)

[killy kill]

going for a walk in the sunshine



:heart:

It's sunny? you prick

 

[the strange guy]

it could be anyone, but it's usually a man

anyway, jane's on the case now with the monster posts, so i'm backing out now and going for a walk in the sunshine

laterz loserz

:heart:

HAHA!
UPCOMING JANE M-M-M-MONSTER POST!!
Run before your eyes are crushed like grapes by the relentless cascade of letters on your screen!

 

[Cormcolash]

it could be anyone, but it's usually a man

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M PISSING MYSELF HERE!!!!!
COMPLETE STRANGERS ARE USUALLY MEN!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST POSTS I'VE EVER SEEN ON THUMPED, FUCK I'M SAVING THIS SHIT SOMEWHERE!

 

[taubstumm]

oh ok, just one more reply

So is your argument that because the male gender causes most violence then all men should take the blame?
They should shoulder the responsibility?

no

 

[taubstumm]

and another

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M PISSING MYSELF HERE!!!!!
COMPLETE STRANGERS ARE USUALLY MEN!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST POSTS I'VE EVER SEEN ON THUMPED, FUCK I'M SAVING THIS SHIT SOMEWHERE!

cormy, you're sort of an expert at missing the point

 

[Cormcolash]

Do you reckon s is actually just another of Lyncher's joke profiles?

 

[the strange guy]

Nope, it's Indie Tom from back in the 90s.

 

[Cormcolash]

and another



cormy, you're sort of an expert at missing the point

Haha don't worry I know what you were trying to say, it's just so fuckin funny when you read it straight-up!

 

[jane]

These concerns are usually echoed by women who in no way feel victimised by their gender in their day to day lives.
Are they wrong to feel this way?
Surely they can't be any more wrong than a woman who does feel victimised.

Read my post again, dude. This is pretty much what I just said.

Perception is a powerful thing, but so is empathy.
Nobody is suggesting that not being feminist means you are incapable of empathy.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I think I agree? Like sure, you don't have to be a feminist to qualify as an empathetic person, I'm just pointing out that there is a double standard when it comes to activism and issues. In other words, it's seen as empathy and activism when you're standing up for a cause that may or may not directly affect you, but there's an accusation of self-victimisation when it comes to feminism. I'm not saying that you said it, just that the double standard really freaks me out.

I can't speak for every woman I know who don't consider themselves feminists, but of course I'll try! This is the internet after all.
It's an anachronism because they feel no need to fight for rights they already have.

It's like the law. You can pass all the laws you want, but if you don't enforce them, or if people don't see the benefit in them, they're worthless.

It's not just about rights, as I'm sure you already know. You can change a law, but attitudes have to change as well, and you can't change anyone's attitude for them.

Some women prefer to stand up for their rights on an individual basis, prefer not to highlight anything relating to gender (although even these women will usually acknowledge when something *is* related to gender), and others take different approaches. Everyone can coexist. Problem is, it's the anti-feminists who hold these women up as examples to feminists and ask why we can't be more like them? Because we're not them. They aren't us. That's cool.

Most of them don't read Eirecore so when I described feminism as an anachronism (which is my Mother's term, not mine) it had nothing to do with the development of this thread and had very little to do with the walking history tour.

I wasn't referring to your post specifically (I am too lazy to go back and find where it began its descent into Another Discussion About The Validity Of Feminism). I didn't respond to it because I figured it would stop (ha!) and go back to being about the walking tour, and there have been so many discussions and arguments about feminism on here that there seemed to be little point.

Feminism is frequently described as anachronistic. It's the apathetic take on it, only there are people who pretend to think it's just an anachronism and yet react really strongly against it, which suggests something other than apathy. Again, I'm not referring to you -- it was a general point.

 

[the strange guy]

oh ok, just one more reply



no

Bah!
It would have been easier if you just explained what you DID mean!

 

[taubstumm]

Nope, it's Indie Tom from back in the 90s.

willie had me listed in his phone as 'indie tom'

guess i'll never be punk

 

[taubstumm]

ok i really am going now

byeeeeee

 

[jane]

It's gender specificness is embarassing to those who don't view gender as a defining characteristic in much the same way black pride can cause the same discomfort with black people who don't view race as an important characteristic.
Most racial violence is caused by white people. So what do we do about it? What shall we tell those pesky whites?

Sorry, I missed this edit.

I don't know what we do about it. I think it's an issue that comes up more and more frequently as issues of equality and difference become more subtle and more muddled. I think the problem is that there is no 'we'.

 

[jane]

Yes, S basically said exactly this a mere 3 posts before you:

"men attack men in the street
men attack women in the home
these things are the responsibility of one gender"

(Notice the complete ignorance of violence perpertrated by women there)

That's a bit nitpicky, don't you think? Yeah, women perpetrate violence.

Funny you should write that, considering that:
1. The first suggestions on this thread of accusation of victimhood, making excuses etc. came from a woman

But what does this matter? I don't get it. It came from a woman -- so what?

Anyway, enough, the rest of your post actually is just the same old boring passive agressive crap designed to draw some sort of response that you always seem to post in these discussions.

It seems to me that "what continues to happen on this board" is that discussions like this are started, people have interesting points to make to each other, you join in, make some ridiculous essay posts which basically say a load of things that everyone else has already said whilst also making sweeping unfounded assumptions about other users of the board, then someone points out that you're talking shite, then you get pissed off and start complaining about it, then the thread gets closed/everyone loses interest.

I almost feel like I can see the future sometimes.

Wow, you're pretty awesome. I wish I was more like you.

 

[hetzer]

I like boobs

 

[the pyrate dead]

sexual violence and domestic violence is, almost overwhelmingly, something that men do to women

should that be ignored?

no, but what also should not be ignored is that the statistics may be hugely inacurate as female to male violence or abuse is not a subject that hundreds of silent victims talk about or report. The f/m abuse is such a tabboo, it 'shames' people to silence, making the number of reports smaller.
not to invalidate your point, as i very aware that male violence exists towards women, but i dont think it should seem as if women are justified to team up against men, or futher segregate themselves, i think the blame is with humanity and its inability to be nice all the time.

 

[spuded]

no, but what also should not be ignored is that the statistics may be hugely inacurate as female to male violence or abuse is not a subject that hundreds of silent victims talk about or report. The f/m abuse is such a tabboo, it 'shames' people to silence, making the number of reports smaller.
not to invalidate your point, as i very aware that male violence exists towards women, but i dont think it should seem as if women are justified to team up against men, or futher segregate themselves, i think the blame is with humanity and its inability to be nice all the time.

good post. I have no problem with any sort of feminist walking tour at all, seems like a decent idea and in the great scheme of things it doesn't really irritate me as much as it does alot of people for some reason. However in regards violence against men (and im not meaning to change the topic) in domestic situations, people need to admit it happens, we all know men who have been victims of being struck, punched or attacked physically by their gfriends/partners at one time. This stuff happens and closer to home than people might be wiling to admit on this forum. It has happened in our 'oh so egalitarian' punk scene and what has the reaction been then? Is it considered to be on the same level as male on female violence, or do we just think, 'ah sure he's a big lad, can take a punch and probably was acting the prick'?

 

[nofunchee]

thanks for the reply. it's good to get some other perspectives on this shit, though some people seem to be intent on being personally offensive to people which is a bit fucked.

JUST MY VEIWS HERE!!!!!!! don't want anyone to have a hernia.

i say nowadays because i feel we are given equal rights. i am proud that some birds back in the day said 'hey we should vote, have career chances etc etc' but now, it seems to me like feminism is a poor excuse to feel like a victim. if anyone wants to feel equal to their peers, all they need to do is truly FEEL equal and ACT equal,.. calling attention on yourself for the oppression of 'our kind'(which makes no sense to me in the first place, men women, its all the same, i never think about the difference) seems like an acceptance of a non existent problem. people of both genders get put down, trod on, and excluded for one thing or another all their lives. thats not specific to women. and you know what? you learn to deal with it. my way of dealing with 'sexism' is the same as my way of dealing with the rest of bullshit humanity's way of taking insecurities out on others, and i don't need a support group for all those types of oppression. do you feel like you need to march to highlight getting slagged on the bus for looking like a weirdo? just an example.
a lot of women just seem to be so up in arms all the time about this shit. i mean, so what,.. your born, the world shits on you, you die, in between that you do what you can to make it fun. my way of doing that is by assuming myself as automatically entitled to think of my self as the same piece of skin and bones as anyone else regardless of gender, so sexism is no issue other than when the same 'sexist' views are passed on to me as other women, i either laugh or personally take issue.
i do think its sad that a lot of women lack the confidence to partake in things like bands etc to the same degree as men, but thats about needing acceptance, not separation, self segregation and victim name tags.

i agree with a lot of what you talk about but i disagree with the main premise - that equality exists, that it's all a lot of fuss about nothing, and that feminism is about victimhood.

i'm really glad you think of yourself as being the same as anyone else, regardless of gender but that's a personal argument about yourself and it doesn't really take in other people's perspectives. i mean your experience of being a woman is gonna be very different to someone else's. and while people of all genders get shit all of their lives i believe that there is shit that is a particular experience of certain people – sexism, racism, classism, homophobia, ageism, etc. are all prejudices that are carried out by some on others. if it happens to you then it's very much your experience. i think that lumping them all together as general put-downs or other people being mean is a bit short-sighted.


if you look outside of 'liberal' western culture you quickly see some pretty extreme examples of issues that directly negatively effect women more than men. three major ones would be rape as a tool of war; that the majority of badly paid and dangerous agricultural and factory work is being done by women and children; and one of the biggest gender specific issues facing western europe – human trafficking (women being taken from their home country to countries in western europe and forced into prostitution) . the first two examples are directly influenced by western foreign policies that are linked to global and local economics that favour the multinational and the western consumer. so even if you were to argue that sexism isn't an issue in ireland it certainly is elsewhere and is influenced by how you live your life. the third example mightn't have much to do with how you live your life but is a problem in the society you live in regardless – i.e. a very real gender related issue.


closer to home, i don't think it's hard to identify 'women's issues' – care work and its impact on access to employment, money, relationships, and spare time; violence towards women, which is a very different and private experience than the violence men typically experience; ownership – men do own the vast majority of property in ireland (and you only have to look at what effect the upper class owning way more property than the working class to figure out what effect that has in terms of power inequalities); reproductive choices; and so on.


then there's the intersecting inequalities experienced by traveller women, lesbians, migrant women, asylum-seeking women, poor women, old women, etc. try telling an immigrant woman working long hours for peanuts in some middle-class irish family's gaff who hold her work permit and control her movements that her life has nothing to do with gender or the fact that she's foreign.




p.s. violence against men by women is a very serious issue for sure. but this is a thread about international women's day and feminism. there's issues there and it's impossible to cover every issue in one argument in fairness. domestic violence against men deserves it's own discussion. or at least a discussion in tandem with women's experiences of violence that doesn't attempt to belittle either argument.

 

[nofunchee]

The only glass ceiling in Ireland appears to be enforced by peoples' own perceptions and a handful of pricks rather than an overriding social acceptance of sexism...

how are people's own perceptions enforcing a glass ceiling when there is no overriding social acceptance of sexism? are you saying that a few down-trodden women are making sexism up for themselves while everyone else goes about their daily lives unphased?

the feminist argument is that sexism and patriarchy are entrenched in our culture, laws, institutions, history, etc. and that by ignoring how ingrained it is we become oblivious to many of its effects. the first example that pops into my head is the irish constitution - the over-arching law of this country. it'd be pretty hard to deny that several of its provisions are deeply sexist. and aside from it being used to produce very fucked up judgements in recent times in the courts, i believe that it's impossible to separate modern views on justice from the core of the justice system.

 

[Buzzo]

Some things: and sorry for focussing on the violence aspect but I can't respond to everything

- Nobody is arguing that violence doesn't happen to men. Yes, men are infinitely more likely to get attacked on the street and that's horrible. This is perpetually portrayed in newspapers, reality tv shows, films etc. Nobody denies this. What is less well known because it was denied for years (see my point about rape and domestic violence not being included in our national crime stats STILL, and rape in marriage only having been made criminal in 1990) is the crimes that are perpetrated against women, and the extent to which it happens. There has been silence around this issue, and the criminal justice system is designed to deal with crimes more commonly perpetrated against men. Do people have a problem with it being highlighted because it seems to be given more importance than violence against men? It' not, it's just making up for the historical acceptance of violence against women, or cultural denial of it's existence and extent.

- Domestic violence against men- yep, I'd say it's grossly underreported (as is domestic violence against women). Why do those of you who posit this argument think it is so? Is it because it's more stigmatised, being a victim of domestic violence if you're a man? Is that because it's embarassing as a man to be beaten up by a woman? Is gender playing a role in that inability to reach out for help, and perhaps the lack of help offered to men or expectations of men to 'deal with it'? And if that's the case, how is gender not an issue when we consider that the vast majority (and if someone wants to point out valid studies that show any other truth) of domestic violence is perpetrated by men against women, and street violence by men against men. The same gender expectations that make it difficult for men to reach out for help are the same gender expectations that make some men think they have a right to beat and rape their partners and children, or think it's necessary to beat other men up on the street.

Nobody is asking anyone to take the blame here. What I argue for, and many feminists argue for, is that we look frankly and honestly at what effect gender roles and expectations has on how we interact with each other. It may not be the answer to interpersonal violence (that'll never end), but it's an avenue that suggests huge potential to me in making society better for everyone, and it's an avenue that won't be explored because of the defensiveness that even mentioning the role of gender elicits. See this thread.

Strangedude: As far as I know, you're not involved in any political/human rights organisations or causes. That's cool. Personally I don't think any less of people who aren't active. Go about your business being a good person and living your life as you think you should, I think that's really important too, but I think it's stupid dismissing political involvement as some self-involved intellectual hob-nobbing. People, believe it or not get shit done by getting together and trying to change things.