Female rock/punk bands in Ireland? (1 Viewer)

[Green Goblin]

They'll say they're "Joking around" but the problem is that also means that they can't take things like women's representation seriously at all. They just come off as a bunch of vapid eejits trying to show off to their mates.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I went to see La Fraction at lady fest. I also went to see them the other times they played. It had nothing to do with them having a female in the band and everything to do with them being awesome.

 

[Ewa]

I went to see La Fraction at lady fest. I also went to see them the other times they played. It had nothing to do with them having a female in the band and everything to do with them being awesome.

I saw them THANX TO LADYFEST, as I have big interest in female vocalists. Was new in Dublin at that time , and it encouraged me hugely to work on my own stuff.

 

[bohs punks]

La Fraction will be over again next year, been talking to them about it, amazing band

 

[Cormcolash]

You're organising a Ladyfest next year, where???

 

[hugh]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/men-who-rock/Content?oid=14913816

 

[Unicron]

I don't know why, but whenever there is a thread of girls night or feminism topics it all turns out into internet fight-club? Are you guys scared, frustrated or hell knows what?Or are you just trying to provoke us? What for?

In this particular case no one is trying to provoke you, if posters are trying to provoke anyone it's Green Goblin because his past history here demonstrates that he's really easy to wind up and that's easier/more fun than trying to end sexism in indie/punk rock.

 

[subbuteo !]

As opposed to you who think there isn't even a problem and attack me for thinking there is and trying to do something about it. Whatever.

yeah like when i said "of course there is a gender imbalance... its great you want to do something about it.(you'll see i suggested some bands etc in other thread at the start)" totally putting the boot in there wasn't i!

also i never attacked you for trying to do something about it or talking about the problem. only time i had ago was about your patranozing tone to anyone not simply agreeing with you 100%.

 

[subbuteo !]

Have any of you been to Ladyfest Dublin with La Fraction as a headliner? It was pure fire , also the Magical Girl that Siobhan used to put on, never a dissapointment.

yeap played that night at ladyfest and played the lesbian arts fest in the george for Siobhan(sound lady) a few weeks after.
two great nights/ events!

 

[washingcattle]

Okay I promised myself I wouldn't do this but

And firstly I'm not having a go at you here but some of this is just glaringly inaccurate and I can't help myself so for the sake of honest debate here goes

This is the problem with discussing sexism, or any "ism" - people fail to recognise that sexism is an institutionalised thing - it happens as a wider effect, as part of our culture.

An entire gender cannot make a choice. It's a ridiculous notion but it's become acceptable discourse when excusing it. You can say that maybe punk music appeals more to testosterone addled males with burly chests but you're starting to feed into stereotypes at that stage. Many off-shoots of "punk", like Goth Rock were relatively female dominated(being influenced by punk acts like Siouxsie and the Banshees), and then you had Riot Grrl in the 90s.

Goth was never Female dominated, There are more female goths than men, yes, but by and large the bands were formed and fronted by men.
Secondly this wouldn't matter anyway because Goth for the most part was a corporate invention and as we all know the corporate world is and always has been male dominated. Ask Robert Smith or any other "Goth" what they think of the word "goth" and you'll usually get the same shrug of the shoulders or down right disdain for a word which was placed on a wide and varied set of bands which really did nothing to promote the term it's self. Just like grunge.

Riot Grrrl differs from this in that it is a directly feminist movement. Now whether or not Rock needs a feminist movement is up for debate. But at the corporate level sure it does. Then again most things at that level are stuck in the dark ages anyway. Whether the average male musician needed riot grrl to let them know that women could play rock music I'm not so sure, but, Riot Grrl was I'm sure an eye opener for young women so that's always a good thing. In the end the Riot Grrl movement made it onto MTV and mainstream culture so this is a huge achievement and it's great when anything which shakes the mainstream norm appears. I mean remember at the time of riot grrl hip hop had only just made that same break through so in reality what you are looking at is an inrode into what Kim Gordon called "male white corporate oppression" rather than anything to do at the grass roots level of forming or being in a band.

You can't just say "Less women are into it", because that warrants an explanation in of itself. You get the same shite discussing the pay gap.

Also this isn't just punk - but the whole live music scene in general, at least which revolves around rock and alternative. Why is that? Again is it because rock music is just inherently aggressive? Does that mean women are simply that much less aggressive than man, by a factor of about 90%(which would be generous as to the representation of male dominated vs. female dominated bands).

I don't think alternative music is inherently aggressive (I'm not here to talk about punk as it's not my thing really) but this is really an aesthetic issue. So here goes I'll play devils advocate

Marnie Stern said something along the lines of

Men make music like they masturbate I wanted to make music the way I do it.

Now I don't totally agree with this but there is again an element of truth to it. Perhaps there is an inherently male way of doing things and an inherently female way and while no one has to abide by either method, it is an interesting jumping off point so lets take drumming. Men are by and large bigger and more muscular so the inherently male way to play the drums in a rock band has always been to hit as hard as you can resulting in one way of doing things copied ad infinum. On the other hand less muscular drummers tend to have to play in a different way with finese rather than brute force and so The Ex, Yo La Tengo, Unwound and even The Carpenters drums sound very different from the male version. I'm not saying that the male attitude towards performing music is different from female but since you brought it up. it bears discussion and I need a female opinion here so I'll leave it there.

And even though rock is aggressive it's led to many genres that have more mellow, even pretty elements that often fit even with a stereotypical "female" image - for example, Shoegaze, or certain genres of rock influenced electronic music(The sort they tend to use on Fashion programmes). What about genres like Post Rock? Psychadelic rock(Peaking lights is a good example, and female fronted).

The stereotypical female image is again an invention of culture at large and nothing to do with the inner workings of a musician or a band. Just because an ad man say women should or do like this does not make this so. As a football fan if I when I'm confronted by nuts magazine, larger and crisp ads I feel genuinely insulted, so I'll leave that there

Do women not feel safe at rock shows? This is a real possibility and something that needs to be addressed. With heavier music, mosh pits and the like, women have less upper body strength and are more likely to be injured - but it's not like you have to go in a mosh pit, and there are still girls who can kick it. Do women get heckled or harassed at certain shows? Maybe they do, or they're afraid they might be. Again, another issue that might need to be addressed and won't be addressed as long as people like people are doing in this thread. If anything, you are the problem for excusing it.

The last time I saw a mosh pit was about 15 years ago. What goes on at large gigs which would have this kind of thing is really a complete mystery to me. And again little to really do with the daily ins and outs of being in a band. Since you brought it up I don't see it as a male/female issue, though it is certainly men who behave this way. It's moreover an issue of deviant personal behaviour. It is not okay to behave violently at a rock show simple as that. If anything needs to be addressed it's with a bunch of men who believe that music gives them the right to behave in a socially unacceptable way. This is a problem in every strata of entertainment and society at large. Whether it's football, music, drinking on a saturday night, there were riots at the opening of the playboy of the western world for christ sake. The attitude of "I like/do not like a piece of art/sport so this gives me the right to act outside of the confines of acceptable behaviour" may be a deterant to women attending gigs, it has certainly has been in football but here you're talking about idiots behaving as thugs. which is an unfortunate and regretable aspect of the male condition and no one here is excusing it.

There is no way in which this argument is remotely rational. Challenging ideas like this is the only way we can push forward - we must recognise that things that happen with large groups of people are not down to individual preference or some kind of hard-wiring, but due to societal constructs like gender roles.

I don't see an argument for neanderthalls behaving badly anywhere.

At the end of the day - the question is, why are there not more female musicians out there? Why are they relegated to being pop-stars, classical performers and singer song writers? Why are there so few to be found in the spheres of alternative music?

What's wrong with pop stars, classical music and singer song writers ?

You don't like them ?

That's what's wrong ?

What do you mean by relegated ?

By whom ?

[

 

[washingcattle]

There is an implied instance here that women must simply lack virtuosity when it comes to playing instruments - I see no real backing for this. If anything, smaller fingers can make for more precise playing, and to me true "virtuosity" comes from creativity, not being able to play like Yngwie.

What's a Yngwie? Anyone ?

Anyway alternative/punk musicians as virtuosos ? while women are relegated to playing classical music ? This is too ludicrous to even discuss

There may at one time have been a tendency for young girls to learn the piano and perhaps this is another historical male habit, but it's hardly oppressive, I know about 5 women who play the piano have since they were girls and they love it. I don't know that it's nessicarily oppressive. I didn't take up guitar til I was 14. If you're implying that there is someone out there stopping girls being in bands then perhaps you should be aiming this at dyed in the wool sexist parents, because I can't see how even the most sexist of man outside of the family unit can stop a teenage girl forming a band. And again this is the major flaw with your argument. Why aren't there more female bands ? because less women form bands. No one is stopping anyone as far as I can see. I mean seriously who are these music overlords ?

Again a female perspective is really needed here so any women who are in or started a band holler at us.

There is no rational reason for the lack of women in popular music and trying to excuse it only involved falling back on gender roles that need to be challenged. Even if certain styles of music appeal more to a male mindset/neurology on average, it doesn't explain why equivalent genres haven't grown up to represent a more female one, and there's no science behind that in the first place as far as I'm aware.

But there is no lack of women in popular music. Label executives, presidents and ceos, network chiefs etc on the other hand. Yes I'm sure that's still a boys club but again not really in the remit of a musician to change that.

Basically, an entire gender cannot choose to be into one style of music more than another. There have to be some sociological factors at play. It has little to do with "want" and writing it off as "want" stops us finding out the "why". This is not an acceptable answer on any level.

If you want to know then survey women. You are saying there aren't enough women in alternative/punk orientated music and at the same time posting this on a largely alternative/punk orientated forum. That's like asking why less men wear lingerie at an Ann Summers party.

In closing Women of Ireland please let me know how I've oppressed you this time ?

 

[Green Goblin]

I think it's pretty sad that people are more into winding someone who wants to do something decent up than actually getting behind improving the scene. I think it says a lot about how a lot of people's moral centers have been utterly lobotomised. Bunch of wasters.

 

[Green Goblin]

Goth was never Female dominated, There are more female goths than men, yes, but by and large the bands were formed and fronted by men.

There was a much higher proportion of female fronted bands in goth(and related genres) than there are in most rock genres. This is hard to deny.

Secondly this wouldn't matter anyway because Goth for the most part was a corporate invention and as we all know the corporate world is and always has been male dominated.

What does this even mean? If there were more women in it, more balance, that's a good how. How does that "not matter" because it was "corporate invention" and how is goth any more a corporate invention than anything else?

Goth is something that came about in the late 70s and early 80s as a label. It wasn't a "corporate invention" because it was based on a natural evolution of punk, glam rock and alternative rock. A lot of bands started to do a similar sort of thing around the same time. This is a natural evolution of a scene.

Ask Robert Smith or any other "Goth" what they think of the word "goth" and you'll usually get the same shrug of the shoulders or down right disdain for a word which was placed on a wide and varied set of bands which really did nothing to promote the term it's self. Just like grunge.

A lot of the older "goths" don't like the label because of it's negative connotations, especially the ones it gained in the late 90s. Some bands do embrace the label. I don't think that bands did nothing to promote the label - there are several collections of "a goth tribute to x" etc.(my favourite being Radiohead). There were particular venues such as the Batcave that centered around that sort of music, goth clubs, etc.

Now whether or not Rock needs a feminist movement is up for debate.

I can't see how you can say it doesn't when there are barely any women in it in th efirst place.

what you are looking at is an inrode into what Kim Gordon called "male white corporate oppression" rather than anything to do at the grass roots level of forming or being in a band.

What?

erhaps there is an inherently male way of doing things and an inherently female way and while no one has to abide by either method, it is an interesting jumping off point so lets take drumming. Men are by and large bigger and more muscular so the inherently male way to play the drums in a rock band has always been to hit as hard as you can resulting in one way of doing things copied ad infinum./quote]

This just sounds like making more excuses. You are just trying to justify gender roles and your reasoning is terrible.

First off, since PAs have become commonplace, volume in terms of drumming is not a major issue. In fact it's a benefit to have a more quiet drummer as it means you can get away with smaller, quieter amps and smaller, quieter venues. You can have a predominantly female band with a male drummer.

The stereotypical female image is again an invention of culture at large and nothing to do with the inner workings of a musician or a band. Just because an ad man say women should or do like this does not make this so.

I'm not the one insisting on it - I'm just saying that even if it was valid, it shouldn't be stopping women from picking up instruments, as there are genres that fit that aesthetic.

What's wrong with pop stars, classical music and singer song writers ?

You don't like them ?

That's what's wrong ?

What do you mean by relegated ?

You have absolutely, on any meaningful level, failed to address the main point of my argument. I didn't say there was anything "wrong" with them. I said it was bad for them to be limited in terms of choice and if you take this around and try to attack me with it, saying I'm the one limiting them, I'm going to drop that argument because you know that's just being contrarian and not facilitating real discussion.

Women as a gender cannot make a choice. There must be some sort of sociological factor accounting for the lack of female musicians in the music scene. You cannot put it down to choice and you have not offered any alterantive explanations. Being in a rock band is largely a "Male" thing and is still seens as that. That's not really a good reason - it's the sort of social structure true punks and rocker should be going up against.

No one is stopping anyone as far as I can see. I mean seriously who are these music overlords ?

Again, see above. Rock music is male dominated, seen as a male thing, even musicianship is to a degree. You are showing a complete lack of understanding as to what institutionalised sexism is. It's not about holding a gun to someone's head. Rather, a culture condition exists that makes it unfavourable for women to be in bands. There are a number of factors to this, but you don't even understand it at the most basic level.

Also, fwiw I am a female solo electronic artist.

But there is no lack of women in popular music.

What sort of popular music? Again, pop stars, singer song writers?

In the actual Irish music scene, how many women are there?

Very few. And that's the problem, and you're not really grasping it.

If you want to know then survey women. You are saying there aren't enough women in alternative/punk orientated music and at the same time posting this on a largely alternative/punk orientated forum. That's like asking why less men wear lingerie at an Ann Summers party.

There aren't any women's alternative/punk forums. That's part of the problem.

 

[subbuteo !]

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There aren't any women's alternative/punk forums. That's part of the problem.

there is a womens punk forum its called eirecore it's for all punks regardless of gender etc.. as far as i know pete hasn't put some sort of limatation on the number of woman who can join or post.

i don't honestly think another forum(or lack of) for you to call names to anyone who doesn't agree with you is the problem/solution.

heres a crazy idea
try actually going to a punk gig (not in cork, scene is very small there try dublin,galway or belfast) have a chat with with some of the many women on the stage,organising the gig,doing the sound or giving it socks up the front. ask them what barriers they found,see or what things they found impowering in the punk scene. work from there.

or contact the girl germs collective for the same.

might be more productive in the end than endless posting,circular arguments on here.

ps.im talking about punk scene as thats what i know and one place you asked for bands from.

 

[hugh]

Green Goblin - can I make a suggestion?

The people who are taking the piss/making lame jokes etc. (e.g. me) you just ignore.

The people who are actually doing what you asked by suggesting punk/rock bands with female members or people you might go and talk to (e.g. subbuteo) you thank.

The people who are engaging with what you are saying (e.g. Washingcattle) you try and engage back without being insulting.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

there is a womens punk forum its called eirecore it's for all punks regardless of gender etc.. as far as i know pete hasn't put some sort of limatation on the number of woman who can join or post.

Amen.A forum exclusively for women isn't going to do anything but foster an us/them attitude.

 

[bohs punks]

the punk scene in corks not bad, played there few times in last year and gigs have been well attended and good fun

 

[Space]

I heard there's girls playing punk music in cork and all.

 

[hermie]

...and still not a single thanks/like/response to any of the suggestions. And supposedly it's everybody else who's on a wind-up!

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

I heard there's girls playing punk music in cork and all.

Surely not.