Doping (1 Viewer)

[Unknown Convict]

it's late but i can't let this one go.

And the backlash Kimmage is getting reminds me of the backlash against me when I mentioned it here.

i just re-read the 6N thread and there seemed to be a general acceptance from the pro-rugby voices, including me, that rugby does have an issue with doping.( i don't know who was named in this thread earlier, but there's a named irish player in the 6N thread.) off the top of my head, i could name half a dozen players (non-irish) who i think are doping and, with some thought, a whole lot more.

Rugby, like every other professional sport, has been corrupted by money, and is rotten to the core.

the core of rugby remains the club, staffed and played by amateurs like @hermie , for the enjoyment of the game and the camaraderie. money = corruption is a hackneyed truism.

does anyone know what kind of tests they administer? just urine or do they take blood as well?

both blood and urine, in and out of competition, as far as i know.

@scutter - what do you mean by doping? obvs. EPO / HGH / etc. are but do you consider nutritional supplements doping if they're not explicitly banned or are considered to be within the bounds of what's acceptable? the current accepted definition seems based on breaking prescribed rules as opposed to improving ones physique by any legitimate means but what's valid in one sport may not be in another.

if doping were more prevalent in rugby, i'd expect fewer injuries and quicker recovery times, but pro players these days can expect to spend between 20% and 40% of their time out injured. sure, rugby players are bigger, fitter and taller than ever before (no player under 6ft. started against SA recently), but that's true of the first world in general regardless of strength and conditioning, diet, lifestyle, etc. all of which are carefully managed in the modern pro.

i think kimmage is out of his depth/comfort zone here and is attempting to apply the logic of a sport he does know to one which he has admitted (e.g. on newstalk last weekend) he knows nothing about and has little interest in. merely throwing accusations at 'unnamed' players (whose identity even a fool could figure out from kimmage's non-naming description of him) should not be enough to warrant genuine suspicion and it certainly doesn't from me. i thought kimmage was better than that and there's an air of tilting at windmills about this.

 

[rettucs]

it's late but i can't let this one go.



i just re-read the 6N thread and there seemed to be a general acceptance from the pro-rugby voices, including me, that rugby does have an issue with doping.( i don't know who was named in this thread earlier, but there's a named irish player in the 6N thread.) off the top of my head, i could name half a dozen players (non-irish) who i think are doping and, with some thought, a whole lot more.

good, good. I don't follow rugby from the bits I have seen down the years my feeling was that teams in the northern hemisphere were years behind southern hemisphere teams in terms of their 'preparation'. I always thought New Zealand and South Africa, in particular were faster and more powerful than, say, England and Ireland. Thats no longer the case so my suspicion is that northern hemisphere teams have caught up.

the core of rugby remains the club, staffed and played by amateurs like @hermie , for the enjoyment of the game and the camaraderie. money = corruption is a hackneyed truism.

same as soccer, cycling, etc. Sports all rotten to the core.

both blood and urine, in and out of competition, as far as i know.

rugby is in the bio-passport? Are you sure?

@scutter - what do you mean by doping? obvs. EPO / HGH / etc. are but do you consider nutritional supplements doping if they're not explicitly banned or are considered to be within the bounds of what's acceptable? the current accepted definition seems based on breaking prescribed rules as opposed to improving ones physique by any legitimate means but what's valid in one sport may not be in another.

no. The definition of doping is very black and white. The rules are there and theres a responsibility on all athletes to familiarise themselves with them. The Irish Sports Council have developed an app to help athletes. Before taking any supplement or medicine they can reference it in the app by name, and find out if its safe to take or not.

if doping were more prevalent in rugby, i'd expect fewer injuries and quicker recovery times, but pro players these days can expect to spend between 20% and 40% of their time out injured. sure, rugby players are bigger, fitter and taller than ever before (no player under 6ft. started against SA recently), but that's true of the first world in general regardless of strength and conditioning, diet, lifestyle, etc. all of which are carefully managed in the modern pro.

Doping will expedite recovery from fatigue for sure. Whether it expedites recovery from injury depends on the nature of the injury. 10 years ago I recall reading an article by an Irish rugby player about the training camps they had in Rosslare. They underwent cryo-recovery through the cryo-chambers they had down there. This enabled them to train 3 times a day but, more telling, it illustrates the desire by those in charge to push the players beyond what what is normal. For me doping is a logical and natural progression, once that mindset is in place (and yes, I am a cynic).

As regards your comment about strength and conditioning, diet, lifestyle etc. All of those are carefully managed in the modern amateur elite athlete. I was involved in elite level sports until last year and I've been part of putting such plans in place for players. Amateur rugby players playing AIL, etc, will live lifes like monks, I would imagine. Its natural to expect that the pro player needs that little bit more.

i think kimmage is out of his depth/comfort zone here and is attempting to apply the logic of a sport he does know to one which he has admitted (e.g. on newstalk last weekend) he knows nothing about and has little interest in. merely throwing accusations at 'unnamed' players (whose identity even a fool could figure out from kimmage's non-naming description of him) should not be enough to warrant genuine suspicion and it certainly doesn't from me. i thought kimmage was better than that and there's an air of tilting at windmills about this.

He knows about doping though. In fact hes an absolute expert in doping, with a track record in helping bring an entire sport to its knees. I would suggest hes well qualified to comment.

And you can tell a lot about a player by simply looking at them.

 

[Unknown Convict]

rugby is in the bio-passport? Are you sure?

i didn't say that but my understanding is that the elite-level players certainly are blood tested e.g.

“I’ve lost count how many times I have been tested, blood, urine, they do it all. Many times they have called to the house, they call here (to Leinster).”

it illustrates the desire by those in charge to push the players beyond what what is normal. For me doping is a logical and natural progression, once that mindset is in place (and yes, I am a cynic).

i think that's unfair. what if the mindset is "be all that i can be within the bounds of the rules"?

Amateur rugby players playing AIL, etc, will live lifes like monks, I would imagine. Its natural to expect that the pro player needs that little bit more.

over to brother @hermie for comment

He knows about doping though. In fact hes an absolute expert in doping, with a track record in helping bring an entire sport to its knees. I would suggest hes well qualified to comment.

but he knows cycling inside-out and has personal experience of doping in the sport. to try to apply that to another sport of which he professes ignorance is stretching his credibility.

to be clear, if there is doping going on in rugby, i'd prefer to know about it and prefer it be rooted out, whether irish or otherwise; international, provincial, club or whatever. its my favourite sport to watch but that would be sullied by discovering an endemic doping problem. play fair, play drug-free, win well, lose better and set a good example.

i do agree with kimmage about the aspirations/ambitions of underage players and the damage that can be caused to them. not everyone is cut out to be a pro and cheating to overcome that issue has no place in the sport.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

Go back and read my post

It says all you need to know about drugby. Riddled.

 

[rettucs]

i think that's unfair. what if the mindset is "be all that i can be within the bounds of the rules"?

I certainly think thats the mindset of any athlete with any bit of ambition. And I would think it was absolutely the prevalent mindset in Irish rugby (at least) back when that article was written.

I can't recall who wrote it. It was either Victor Costelloe or Reggie Corrigan. If you compare the players of that era to those of this era (and, considering both are in the professional era I think it is a like-with-like comparison), are there not vast differences in the physique, speed and strength of players? To my uninformed eye it would seem so.

 

[Unknown Convict]

Met a Connacht player in a pub over in the west last year. He has 1 Irish cap. I asked him about doping. He said he knew of 3 Irish internationals who everyone pretty much knew doped and said it was said that most if not all of the Springboks were juiced up. I asked him how do Connacht prepare and he told me they have a room where each player goes individually for their "supplements". I tweeted kimmage this at the time. I've yet to receive a thanks for the heads up.

Go back and read my post

It says all you need to know about drugby. Riddled.

i'm not asking you to name the 3 players who "everyone pretty much (my emph.) knew" were doping, but i'm curious who the connacht player is. "1 irish cap" could equal "axe to grind" and even if you accept that there are three known (within the sport) drug cheats, there are approx.45-50 players in active consideration for the ireland team so you're talking about <7% of the squad. hardly riddled.

I certainly think thats the mindset of any athlete with any bit of ambition. And I would think it was absolutely the prevalent mindset in Irish rugby (at least) back when that article was written.

can you clarify which mindset - the "within the rules" one or the "doping is a logical progression" one. which article are you referring to?

I can't recall who wrote it. It was either Victor Costelloe or Reggie Corrigan. If you compare the players of that era to those of this era (and, considering both are in the professional era I think it is a like-with-like comparison), are there not vast differences in the physique, speed and strength of players? To my uninformed eye it would seem so.

rugby went pro in '95 and both corrigan and costello had a foot in both eras. in their day, there was a hangover of old-style players of all shapes and sizes. since '95 rugby has become a realistic career prospect for people who would previously have been outside the "fee-paying school/alickadoo" cohort and attracts players from a wider social pool, but a narrower physical one. to make it as a pro now, you need to be 6ft.+, 90kg+. as i said above, not everyone is cut out to be a pro.

 

[rettucs]

can you clarify which mindset - the "within the rules" one or the "doping is a logical progression" one. which article are you referring to?

the former

 

[Unknown Convict]

Joe Schmidt does not believe Irish rugby has a doping problem

 

[CinnamonBoy]

@Unknown Convict

He had no axe to grind. He played rugby to surf. I felt he admitted to me that even he was doping, albeit on a low scale.

I couldn't give a fuck about rugby but that was the conversation we had. Sound lad.

 

[rettucs]

Schools quiet on use of supplements in underage rugby

Time has come for rugby to assess health risks of monster hits

 

[rettucs]

2 good articles there.

I saw yesterday (was away for a couple of weeks so missed the original documentary) about the shitstorm brewing in Russian athletics. Part of the allegations to come out is that the IAAF have been complicit in covering up certain cases. There are 150 cases on a 'suspicion' list that has apparently leaked. On this are the names of athletes from several countries. 3 are British and rumour has it that one of them rhymes with Raula Padcliffe.

I believe that British sport in general is riddled. They upped their game so much before the London olympics that it was almost laughable how well they did. So many PBs and WRs, gold medals aside. Ridiculous. And the British athletics team were up for 'team of the year' on that BBC sports person of the year programme last night.

So if I'm right about British sport (and I sincerely doubt I'm wrong), thats them, Russia and Australia that we've been told is riddled. Oh, and America (Carl Lewis, BALCO, etc).

 

[Unknown Convict]

Schools quiet on use of supplements in underage rugby

Time has come for rugby to assess health risks of monster hits

the cummiskey one is on the money and overdue, as it comes from an IT rugby staffer. i did express concern upthread about schools/underage players - the lack of testing is a joke, as is the attitude of all but brendan macken on whether it's needed. it is needed if even one guy thinks it's an acceptable thing to do, because those attitudes are a cancer which will metastasise through the sport and school sports in general.

duggan's has a good thesis - re size of hits and long-term damage, however caused - but he should focus on that rather than greying the argument with references to kimmage's ill-informed pronouncements. even if we assume all players are taking legal 'supplements' as opposed to banned narcs, his central tenet bears interrogation, but may only be dis/proven with time.

again, kimmage should stick to a sport he understands, rather than one about which he has professed ignorance. not everything he says "carr[ies] considerable clout given his dauntless quest to prove that Lance Armstrong... was just another doper in a corrupt sport"

 

[rettucs]

this is a new one on me

Santambrogio tests positive for testosterone during EPO ban | Cyclingnews.com

2 days before his ban was due to end he gets popped for EPO.

Whats more significant about this case for me is that Santambrogio was Cadel Evan's right hand man when he was winning all round him at BMC.

 

[nuke terrorist]

i'm not going to comment on rugby as i'm not interested in it and don't know about it.
i'm just going to mostly post links this time.

Doping in football fifty years of evidence:
Doping in Football: Fifty Years of Evidence | Four Dimensional Football football-fifty-years-of-evidence/
( in this long list Algeria 1982 is particularly scary.)

correctiv | englisch DATENSCHUTZERKLÄRUNG

search Henry Winter's interview with Danny Mills in the February 8th 2013 Telegraph. he talks about 'medicine' taking in English football. (the link is too long to type.)
there seems to be a problem in football with players being given products and not knowing what they are - remember what Richie Sadlier said ? this is not the case in cycling - they know what they are doing.

a few points:
it is simple for anyone to buy EPO, Growth Hormone and other illegal products over the internet. this has huge implications even for grass roots sports.

the last player to test positive at a World Cup was Maradona in 1994. (no one since.)

 

[nuke terrorist]

the broken link in the above post was the english version of fussballdoping.de | Alles zu Doping im Fußball

 

[Unicron]

I see Team Sky's doctor got banned for life this week.

The story about it on the sky sports website was very amusing. The only covered his career up to the Rabobank years.

 

[rettucs]

I see Team Sky's doctor got banned for life this week.

The story about it on the sky sports website was very amusing. The only covered his career up to the Rabobank years.

I bet it didn't say that Bradley Wiggins rode for Rabobank in 2001.

Also, look up the stories on Zorzoli. Cycling is a fucking joke of a sport.

But to be clear about Leinders. He was the 'saddle-sore-specialist' at Sky. No more.

 

[Unicron]

Can you get EPO as a suppository?

 

[Cormcolash]

Sexy

 

[rettucs]

Can you get EPO as a suppository?

I'm sure you can though I've never heard it being administered that way.

EPO is so 1990s though. All the cool kids have moved on way past that.