DIY ethics (1 Viewer)

[Keeror]

Since we're having an aul' referendum today on the future of the European Project (I do love that phrase), I thought it might be timely to raise the following issue:

Is it ethical to have Irish records produced in the Czech Republic (and/or any other very cheap, non-EU country)?

The case for YES:
1. The low cost allows more Irish bands to produce more records without the aid of corporations.
2. It boosts the economies of poorer nations.

The case for NO:
1. Tax dodging is immoral.
2. Fails to support local industry.
3. Does exactly what the big, nasty corporations would do - exploit the low labour costs of non-EU countries, moving on when the service/product becomes cheaper elsewhere.

 

[John]

1. By Tax Dodging, do you mean Import Duty dodgy? Balls.

2. There is no local industry.

3. Personally I don't use the Czech Republic, and in any case, the Irish underground scene hasn't the power to affect any economic impact on any industry in any country. When there's a thriving Japnoise (paddynoise?) scene with various artists putting 101 records out a year, then we'll those bastards by the balls, whoever they are, whatever I was talking about...

 

[mugwump]

Keeror (07 Jun, 2001 11:14 a.m.):
Tax dodging is immoral.

Tax dodging is not immoral. You are taxed on everything you buy, on every service you avail of at 20%..VAT. Then your wages are taxed (you don't really 'pay' tax anyway as a PAYE worker for example - its deducted from you and you have to grin and bear it). So you are being taxed twice...what is done with this money...if you want to drive you have to pay road tax and pay VAT on petrol. You pay tax for things like Health care and transport - The irish governments contribution towards transport is the lowest in Europe. The tax you pay is squandered...if it is not spent on ridiculous things (politicians pay increases, £1 billion stadiums, government jets, brown envelopes etc..) it is sat on...and money that is sat on has a strange habit of disappearing over time.

 

[Keeror]

Tax dodging *is* immoral.
Big earners hiding cash from the exchequer is one of the reasons why for so long Irish PAYE workers have had to endure high income tax and a low standard of services in return.
Double taxation may be wrong, but I'm sure if you continue to vote PD they'll sort you out soon enough. Just don't get sick.

Is there really no vinyl pressing services in the Republic? What about the rest of the EU?

How do you know when you've begun to make an impact on an economy? What's the minimum downpayment?

What's this "sat on" money that disappears you're on about, Mugwump? Are you talking about the vast amounts that get thrown into the bottomless pit that is the World Bank? That might be immoral too....

I always think it's funny how indie/DIY/leftie/non-capitalist people can so easily fall into the trap of adopting the principles of their opposite numbers on the corporate right. Life, she is a circle, no?

 

[silo]

in a word, no.

it is unethical to get records pressed in a commercial pressing plant, whether in the czech republic or not. all wage labour is exploitation, and so getting records pressed anywhere by someone who wouldn't be doing it if they weren't getting paid for it is exploitation and thus unethical.

that, hopefully, gives an indication of the theoretical end, and will also hopefully put a bit of distance between people dribbling on about utopian aspirations (which nonetheless should still very definitely be aspired to) and the world of lived experience. everything in the world is practice and compromise. so...

what the issue really is is whether the exploitation suffered by workers in the czech republic is greater than the benefits accrued by (1) the worker and (2) the spotty irish indie kids.

so, the three arguments put forward:

-tax.
tax has nothing to do with it; the ethics of taxation is a seperate issue not directly involving the people working in the czech republic and only tangentially involving the spotty irish indie kids (although 21% or whatever it is is quite a hefty tangent).

-local industry.
another theoretical concern. if there actually was a local irish pressing plant then this argument would perhaps have some merit (albeit limited - dunnes stores market themselves with the 'because we're irish' tag - does this make their exploitation 'better' than tescos?) but there isn't one.

-'nasty corporations'.
theoretically, yes. we are acting just like the corporations. however, in practical terms, it again comes down to a balancing game. boycotting the plant could well be more likely to be unhelpful to the average plant worker (a la gap boycotts leading to sweatshop workers losing their jobs and livelihoods, which, although terrible, are all they have), but this concern can be weighed against the possibility of a well-aimed, well-timed boycott resulting in an improvement for the workers. this, perhaps, is where efforts to improve the situation should be concentrated. that is, if there is enough solidarity and concern to want to take action and to make that action effective.

in practical terms, getting records pressed in the czech republic is ok by me. the scale of possibility to effect change is the factor that would determine, in a practical, case-by-case, subject-to-constant-review manner whether it would be useful and relevant to act (acting presumably being boycotting). this scale depends on things like; how much of the customer base of gramofon zanodofy would be willing to boycott, and how much would sympathise and/or show solidarity? do the workers in the czech republic want actions undertaken in their name that they might not necessarily approve of or sympathise with? (the ira claim to represent us, remember?) what would be the likely effect of a boycott? is this necessarily the best tactic?

until there is some reasonable scope for change (which, of course, would be based on subjective interpreation - another contradiction between theory and practice) then there is little we can do.

but hey... perhaps we could write them a little letter? that'd be nice. mmm.

 

[Keeror]

Silo, if you get yourself a decent speech writer you'll have a good career in politics. Nice, subtle spinning. But with content.
Thanks. (Seriously).

 

[andy]

issit true that Gramafoozfsodpfsnsfdpojnsdafsdski Glasnost press up 7inches for Nazi punk, sorry Punk bands?
i think thats shocking!
oh no wait - i dont really care.
but that is what some guy told me once.....

Hitler sings the browns.

andy

 

[Keeror]

Summer holidays are great, eh Andy?
It's so good to be pissed before midday.....

 

[mugwump]

Keeror (07 Jun, 2001 06:02 p.m.):
I always think it's funny how indie/DIY/leftie/non-capitalist people can so easily fall into the trap of adopting the principles of their opposite numbers on the corporate right. Life, she is a circle, no?

Life sure is complicated sometimes...OK, here is my twopence. I completely agree with you that life is a circle. No doubts about it and I'm not afraid to admit it. The question I want to ask you is - would you, given the oppertunity, pay less tax to the governemt/authorities than you normally do. Say you were self-employed and were able to claim expenses, fill out your own VAT returns etc.., would you look for ways in making the books more favourable for your own benefit. Say you had the oppertunity to pay £200 (for example) less tax a month and it was completely 'legal', would you do it or would you hand over that £200 to the tax man ? I want you to be as honest with yourself as possible. Just think, you could use that money to set up your own record label in Ireland so you would not have to exploit the Czech record guys anymore. So you have solved one ethical dilemna by creating another one...but that is not going to get you anywhere (ethically speaking).

I answered yes because that is exactly what I would do and I am not afraid to admit it. That does not make me an indie/DIY/leftie/non-capitalist or an opposite number on the corporate right as you say. I am not a greedy person, I am not an evil person nor am I 'left' or 'right'. I don't vote for the PD's. I am simply being realistic and honest about it. Some of that money I would use to buy food with. Some of that money I would spend on dental care which costs much more than most can afford yet I have to get it done. Some of the money will go towards my rent which is way too much anyway.Some of that money I would put aside in case I or my family get sick and need medical care. I am not going to use that money to buy designer clothes, I am not going to purchase the most expensive and latest mobile phone model on the market.

Yet at the same time I completely agree with your point that 'big earners hiding cash from the exchequer' are wrong to do so. Isnt' that something. I'm being hypocritical now. How can that be ? I can't explain it...it does not make much sense yet that is the situation. Is small scale (a couple of hundred quid here and there) tax dodging by small earners wrong ? Maybe, maybe not but given today's circumstances mugwump personally would not give Charlie McCreevy an extra £200 a month out of my pocket if I could get away with it. What bugs me is when people are not honest with themselves. They adopt a politically correct opinion and start saying that others are wrong...and you are completely entitled to do so. Yet when it comes down to it they do the exact opposite of what they have said. So again I ask you, would YOU take the extra £200 quid ?

And that is the reality of the situation. It has nothing to do with Ethics because that is a different kettle of fish altogether. Only an individual can decide wether something is ethically right or wrong as there are no absolute thruths or universals. To kill somebody is wrong...yet if I am attacked and kill somebody in self defence I was right to do so. Is it ethically wrong to steal ? What if you steal food to feed yourself if you are starving ? The list goes on and on and for every person who says yes another will say no.

I don't think that big earners hiding cash from the exchequer is the reason why Irish PAYE workers have had to endure a low standard of services in return. Pretty much for the same reasons why famine is not due to natural disasters for example. It's mainly due to the poor distrubution of money and resources. The money is there, it's just not being spent on the right things. I read recently that £3 million has already been spent on Stadium Ireland for example, £1 million of that having gone towards another feasibility study for the 50m swimming pool that is to be part of the stadium. Yet there is no physical evidence of a stadium or a swimming pool.
That is what I meant when I said that money that is sat on has a strange habit of disappearing over time. £3 million pounds of your money and my money gone...on what. The money is not being spent on the right things. Another example are the Hospitals...St. Vincents Hospital in donnybrook has around 400 beds. There are approx. 2,100 staff members working there. Most of the money that Hospitals get is spent on wages for Managers and advisors etc.. who are totally unecessary for the running of the Hospital. Most health care workers know this and would know how to go about solving a lot of the problems that face the health care system yet nothing is done. The money is not spent on providing better training programmes for more nurses which would allow more beds to be opened but on Human Resources managers who waste time and money.
Another example is the World Expo that took place in Hannover last year. It was funded by taxpayers money. The President went to visit the irish pavillion and they bought a China Tea set prior to her visit in case she wanted tea, worth £1,500. Did she want tea, no, she wanted a glass of water. I am not making this up by the way but was told this by one of the staff. That tea set was paid for by you and me...what an absolute waste.

 

[old]

Poisonally speaking, my experience with a pressing plant across the water was disappointing. GZCD don't tend to mess with the sound of your record. I was talking to that band Floach who supported AMT recently and they found the same thing. Having paid heftily for a record and getting back a (slightly) different one some years ago I count as a lesson learned. For CDs, now that there are plenty of pressing plants here that aren't massively overpriced, I'd rather keep the money in the country. This may make me one of those you spoke of who move on when it suits them, I suppose. If I could get a record pressed in Ireland I would.
Anyone who I've spoken to in GZCD by phone has seemed articulate and well educated, so, quite honestly, it's never really occurred to me how their social situation compares to mine. Does anyone have any info on this?
I did Czech out the Neo-Nazi business and found this: http://www.praguepost.cz/archive/news806d.html

 

[andy]

HA! thank you joss - in all your stinkin faces!
call me a drunk will you?
assholes. YEAH!


andy

 

[Ex-User (250)]

this is all very interesting. but who's really in the right and how do we know for sure? right now, i think the only way to find out would be to sue ourselves and see how the press & public latch onto the case. then, if there's a backlash, we can start writing statements about our intent to be mindful of the czech worker's rights and the state of our their environment etc... and take personality tests to weed out the dublin bands who won't go along with 'our' new way of thinking - it's as easy as this http://www.shell.com/royal-en/content/0,5028,25487-50983,00.html . if no one says anything, we're home free lads... yeeehaaa!!! but there's always a danger this might happen http://www.essentialaction.org/shell/report/ - if it does, em... we'll just call ourselves something different and start making electric cars or something... i dunno.

 

[Vinnie]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!

 

[Ex-User (250)]

that was kinda my point in that for any of 'our' practices to change, or to instigate change of any type, we'd have to sue ourselves beacause we haven't really annoyed anyone enough, except carzy that it but he's always been a bit touchy-feely if you know what i mean...

 

[Ex-User (250)]

... and until we've done some real damage or annoyed anyone beyond belief, shut the fuck up and let me press some records! ok?

 

[old]

When will that Melt Banana thing come out?
You're too slow!
I want it now!
It makes such noises!

 

[Pantone247]

tell you what I'll set up a pressing plant. I'll make it out of asbestos and lead and cut the records using a machine made out of whale blubber and elephant tusks powered by fossil fuels....

the records will then be tested on bunny rabbits and white mice living in metal cages and packaged by battery chickens with foot and mouth and will be delivered by malnutritioned underpaid Irish children who'll I keep in a sack under my kitchen sick and feed them on ki-ora and wham bars.

now you can sleep safe in the knowledge that your records are entirely PC and eco friendly... in fact you can brag loudly about this fact to friends at business lunches when you have one sherry to many and have to be sent home early from work for leaving sweat stains on the fax machine.

 

[skypilot]

"What if you steal food to feed yourself if you are starving ? The list goes on and on....That tea set was paid for by you and me...what an absolute waste..."

I suggest we live like the Vulcans, the most logical race in the universe, then, obviously, we will all live totally economic lives, with none of this wastage nonsense, and we won't have to have any of these arguments...we won't even need this message board anymore, we'll all just be eating, working and sleeping

 

[Ex-User (250)]

perfect. i'm up for that, no bother.

 

[pad]

im not bothered reading this because im in a really expensive cafe in chicago but i think most people seem to get taxed on gzcd things we did and it think good time john did too.