Coronavirus: Better Call Sol - CORONAMANIA (13 Viewers)

[ernesto]

@IFF, the missus was just saying this as we were watching the news.
Pretty disgraceful alright

 

[flashback]

I know this is already happening in some courses in Ireland before all this. Most universities are running short on space at the best of times.


I think this should be done more now that we’ve ripped the plaster off but although students appreciate it at the moment, I don’t think it’s a good replacement for actual in-class teaching. Even when I lecture a big class (200 students), you work off the room. It’s never a case of just reading off the slides and robotically carrying on.

That's true. But it doesn't have to be 100% online, there can be an in person component, and an online component.

That depends on the course and the department. Some departments have millions of graduate students (like the sciences) but some of the humanities won’t have those resources. Plus I don’t know any course that really dose one on one tutorials.

I don't know the humanities very well, certainly the sciences had plenty of post grads eager for work. From what I saw the arts / humanities had been post graduate people also eager to work too. It demands money though.

One on one: I was thinking about pure mathematics there, probably most subjects don't do that. I was going for worst case scenario.

They already rent out the RDS, the Mansion House and who knows what else around the city centre. Exams take up a huge amount of physical space. That said, I’d love to see a move to less exam-focused assessment - my course became an essay this year in place of the usual exam.

Right. I was more saying that fitting people in an exam hall shouldn't be a rate limiting step. Three or four shifts of exams can go on in halls, more space can be rented. Finding the space to sit an exam shouldn't be a reason for not letting people into a Uni, that can be figured out if you think hard enough.

Erm, they’re fucking huge courses. Practical classes run pretty much constantly across dozens of large teaching labs every day. It is a massive draw on lecturers, graduate students, and technical staff. Lectures and exams are child’s play in comparison. Bear in mind that the early years of chemistry and biology are also done by medical, radiography, dentistry, veterinary, and physiotherapy degrees (amongst others I’m sure).

That was the point I was trying to make, wasn't clear I suppose. My point was that the very resource heavy courses, like the sciences, are only 300 odd points in the leaving? They are not that highly sought after. It seems to be other courses that are much more in demand. My point was that Ireland already seems to be able to cope with the demand science undergraduates are making. Those courses are very difficult to scale up, but I don't see that demand taking off even higher.

Courses like business, law, economics, I dunno, lots of them they are less resource heavy, they can be scaled up more easily, and they seem to be the ones that people are hankering after. (Or no?)

While there certainly are “prestige courses” with small numbers to drive up the points (but are otherwise bog standard science degrees for example), I really don’t think universities are capping places artificially. They need students, the more students the better as that’s where they get their money. The fact is, staffing levels in Irish universities are shite and it is impossible for any sort of decent education to be maintained if they increase the numbers by any significant number. The system is creaking under its own weight as it is with too few, underpaid, and overworked staff carrying a faulty university system that really needs to be tackled from a government level.

There's no question that money needs to be pumped into third level stuff in general. Staffing levels were pretty bad when I was there, and I was doing post grad computer science, which is the wealthy end of things. I've been told it's become worse across the board. Pumping money into third level as a response to covid is not the worst idea in the world. Gov money is going to have to be spent in lots of areas, traditionally third level gives good return on investment. That argument should be easy to make?

I think the Unis are playing to the same rules that were in place 50 years ago. I don't think they have really focused on getting higher numbers of first year admissions. They have been focused on getting the "highest standard" of admissions, which leads to the best outcome in their opinion. My point is: that's wrong. You get the best outcomes by letting in lots of people, having really high standards, and letting them drop out.

Meaning admitting large numbers of first years doesn't necessarily results massive increases in 2nd years. If they are let in the door and have to work really hard to get through, second year sorts itself out.

I dunno. Sort of thinking out loud a bit, admittedly.

 

[Cormcolash]

I know this is already happening in some courses in Ireland before all this. Most universities are running short on space at the best of times.


I think this should be done more now that we’ve ripped the plaster off but although students appreciate it at the moment, I don’t think it’s a good replacement for actual in-class teaching. Even when I lecture a big class (200 students), you work off the room. It’s never a case of just reading off the slides and robotically carrying on.


That depends on the course and the department. Some departments have millions of graduate students (like the sciences) but some of the humanities won’t have those resources. Plus I don’t know any course that really dose one on one tutorials.


They already rent out the RDS, the Mansion House and who knows what else around the city centre. Exams take up a huge amount of physical space. That said, I’d love to see a move to less exam-focused assessment - my course became an essay this year in place of the usual exam.


Erm, they’re fucking huge courses. Practical classes run pretty much constantly across dozens of large teaching labs every day. It is a massive draw on lecturers, graduate students, and technical staff. Lectures and exams are child’s play in comparison. Bear in mind that the early years of chemistry and biology are also done by medical, radiography, dentistry, veterinary, and physiotherapy degrees (amongst others I’m sure).


While there certainly are “prestige courses” with small numbers to drive up the points (but are otherwise bog standard science degrees for example), I really don’t think universities are capping places artificially. They need students, the more students the better as that’s where they get their money. The fact is, staffing levels in Irish universities are shite and it is impossible for any sort of decent education to be maintained if they increase the numbers by any significant number. The system is creaking under its own weight as it is with too few, underpaid, and overworked staff carrying a faulty university system that really needs to be tackled from a government level.

Irish universities need funding, simple. Funding levels I think are still lower than what they were before the 2008 recession. That's over 10 years of increasing costs wages inflation etc., and the universities are expected to manage with funding that wouldn't have been adequate over a decade ago. We're just talking about a decade of abject failure from FG and co. in terms of addressing this problem. In that time, all they've done is have the Cassels report, which still hasn't been published and is already behind schedule.
Also for most of the last decade, the Irish universities themselves have all been lobbying continuously for a student fee system, despite the fact that it's well-known that student fee debt in the US is a massive time bomb just waiting to explode. The universities were all opting for the neoliberal solution because their administrations were so dependent on the neoliberal system; it's only in the last couple of years after consistent student protest that they've accepted that that the student fee system is a mess in places that actually use it.
It's obvious that a more European system is required, considering that most countries in Europe have universities that actually function for their students. This all comes down to state funding, and the willingness of the state to fund third-level education. Ireland has been completely uninterested in doing this for over a decade, so the creaking of the university system now is entirely expected. The question is, how is anything going to be any different when the same people are still going to be in charge?

 

[flashback]

That was the point I was trying to make, wasn't clear I suppose. My point was that the very resource heavy courses, like the sciences, are only 300 odd points in the leaving? They are not that highly sought after. It seems to be other courses that are much more in demand. My point was that Ireland already seems to be able to cope with the demand science undergraduates are making. Those courses are very difficult to scale up, but I don't see that demand taking off even higher.

Courses like business, law, economics, I dunno, lots of them they are less resource heavy, they can be scaled up more easily, and they seem to be the ones that people are hankering after. (Or no?)

fuck me. I'll try again.

The Sciences ARE highly sought after. But, I thought, that demand is largely being met looking at the points requirements. The demand is not massively greater than the supply is what I'm trying to say. I don't think that's about to change.

Regarding whether you get into UCD, Trinners, UCC or god help us and pray for the sinners etc, Maynooth Science, can be determined by a lottery or something. Science is preeeetty much science. The location of the course can be something I'd have less sympathy about.

 

[Cormcolash]

I think the Unis are playing to the same rules that were in place 50 years ago. I don't think they have really focused on getting higher numbers of first year admissions. They have been focused on getting the "highest standard" of admissions, which leads to the best outcome in their opinion. My point is: that's wrong. You get the best outcomes by letting in lots of people, having really high standards, and letting them drop out.

I don't know of any evidence to suggest that. I would think that the main problem with that line of thinking would be maintaining high standards whilst having large class sizes. Who's going to mark all the extra work, etc? You'd need large numbers of extra, and capable, staff, or the failure rate will be immense. And then you also have the issue of all those borderline cases. In Ireland, most of them will threaten to sue you or take some sort of action unless their mark is bumped up to that pass mark. Then you get mired down in legal fees.

 

[hugh]

Pumping money into third level as a response to covid is not the worst idea in the world. Gov money is going to have to be spent in lots of areas, traditionally third level gives good return on investment. That argument should be easy to make?

Absolutely. The argument is easy to make and seems like a no-brainer but that doesn't necessraily means that those with the purse strings accept it. I would second pretty everything Cornu said back there by the way. It's not easy to simply ramp things up but having said that .... I do think there are "prestige" courses around the country who could probably take more a lot more students but the smaller numbers and resultant higher points level are more about maintaining systemic privilege than providing opportunities for as many as possible.

I mean, if a particular course consistently has point levels of 580 points or whatever it is then why on earth would it not be expanded in such a way as to give more people the opportunity to take it?

 

[flashback]

I don't know of any evidence to suggest that. I would think that the main problem with that line of thinking would be maintaining high standards whilst having large class sizes. Who's going to mark all the extra work, etc? You'd need large numbers of extra, and capable, staff, or the failure rate will be immense. And then you also have the issue of all those borderline cases. In Ireland, most of them will threaten to sue you or take some sort of action unless their mark is bumped up to that pass mark. Then you get mired down in legal fees.

I mean.... I marked a lot of exams. And I gave a lot of tutorials and stuff, and I would have done more. I was a post grad, and there were something like 20 of us, all willing to take on work.

There was never any talk of suing anybody. I failed people. I made a mistake marking one paper, it didn't affect the grade, but it was noticed and corrected. No one mentioned litigation though.

If you have continual assessment, smaller pieces of work can be examined and standards are maintained that way. It's actually a better way of doing things than finals. Regular small assessments, weekly or fortnightly, the post grads can mark them.

I can tell you first hand it's really easy to see what's going on with computer science undergrads by looking at small fortnightly exams.

 

[Unicron]

You’ve only gotten one? A get a few of them a year since finishing my degree in 2006. I’ve gotten maybe two total from Maynooth since graduating from there 10 years ago.

I got one this week specifically asking for money for the access programme or something similar, which is something I might consider if I ever did consider giving money to TCD.

John Mulaney has a good bit on your old college asking for money years later.

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[Cormcolash]

I mean.... I marked a lot of exams. And I gave a lot of tutorials and stuff, and I would have done more. I was a post grad, and there were something like 20 of us, all willing to take on work.

There was never any talk of suing anybody. I failed people. I made a mistake marking one paper, it didn't affect the grade, but it was noticed and corrected. No one mentioned litigation though.

If you have continual assessment, smaller pieces of work can be examined and standards are maintained that way. It's actually a better way of doing things than finals. Regular small assessments, weekly or fortnightly, the post grads can mark them.

I can tell you first hand it's really easy to see what's going on with computer science undergrads by looking at small fortnightly exams.

Eh sure, as long as you have enough postgrads and you're willing to pay them, which again comes down to having more money in the university system. It seems the current model Trinity employs is to exploit postgrads as much as possible by paying them fuck all.

Teaching Assistants decry “exploitative employment practices” in Trinity – Trinity News

Several teaching assistants in Trinity have said they feel “exploited” and “undervalued” in the way they are treated by College, citing issues which ranged from the precarity of their employment status, to questioning the legality of the fact that they are employed without receiving their terms...

trinitynews.ie

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Even better, have the post-grads pay to correct the under grads exams as a hands-on practical module of their own course, or get some lecturers on jobs bridge

 

[flashback]

exploit postgrads as much as possible by paying them fuck all

Right.

That's the fairly standard model alright.

I mean, all of this revolves around dumping money into 3rd level. But the fact of the matter is, we're pretty much fooked at the moment. What are the alternatives? Money is going to have to be spent to gee up the economy.

There's going to be measures taken all over the shop.
Dumping some cash into third level, getting a bit of a change in the model with respect to entrance requirements, maybe rethinking things in general; all of this can be done now.

That's the thing I keep coming back to, what's the alternative? Leaving everything the same and guessing doesn't seem ideal.

 

[flashback]

Anyway. I went off doing serious hunting to try to remedy the jacks roll situation. And check out this sweet little bit of action.

It's made from recycled horse shit, asbestos and bits of car tyre, I was only allowed buy one, but by Christ I have jacks roll.

You can all sleep well tonight with this knowledge.

 

[magicbastarder]

on that topic, i made a new jacks roll holder for the loo the other day. the base was made of the old internal window boards taken out when the windows were replaced in the gaff, and the stick part was from the poles from the windbreak we used to use when i was a kid, on picnics or trips to the beach.

 

[magicbastarder]

to be fair. lest it sound like i'm some sort of frugal guru, i made it using equipment that cost over a grand.

 

[magicbastarder]

and the loo roll is probably from the mddle to high range of luxury from lidl too. i have standards.

 

[Cormcolash]

Did you guys never learn how to use the three seashells or what??

 

[flashback]

to be fair. lest it sound like i'm some sort of frugal guru, i made it using equipment that cost over a grand.

View attachment 13935

The bruise on the base of the left thumbnail says dedication.

 

[Space]

I did the huge first year thing in DIT and don't think it works well compared to a reasonable amount of students who can actually get some attention from the lecturers. I certainly did an awful lot better in a much harder course when given some attention/encouragement rather than a feeling of being weeded out.

 

[flashback]

I did the huge first year thing in DIT and don't think it works well compared to a reasonable amount of students who can actually get some attention from the lecturers. I certainly did an awful lot better in a much harder course when given some attention/encouragement rather than a feeling of being weeded out.

Let's say you had two options:

- Being let in with a pile of other kids knowing you won't get perfect levels of attention, but you will have access to resources like libraries and lectures. (And knowing if you can get past the first year you'll be in a smaller group which can get more attention.)

- Not being let in.

Which one?


Actually, that's not realistic. Let's say option 2 isn't not being let in, let's say it's a lottery, you have one chance in 50 or something, but if you get in you'll get that higher level of attention. If you don't win the lottery, you don't get in.

 

[Space]

I'd choose option 2 and pick a course without huge numbers and lecturers whose intent is to get rid of you.

Or better still go the UK and get a proper education in less years.