Carlo Giuliani protest.. (1 Viewer)

[subbuteo !]

"Does anyone know where that pig is now? Dead or alive? Facing charges?"
He was let off all charges, as apparently he wasn't trying to shoot mr.giuliani, but fired a warning shot at the ground, which accidentaly richocheted into his skull....

so it was ancident ,great no need for any more marches.
but the bloody sunday marches still happen every year see ye all there
wont i ???

 

[broken arm]

so it was ancident ,great no need for any more marches.
but the bloody sunday marches still happen every year see ye all there
wont i ???

sorry, but dont even dare compare bloody sunday to what happened to giuliani. that shows a serious lack of understanding about both tragedies....

 

[subbuteo !]

sorry, but dont even dare compare bloody sunday to what happened to giuliani. that shows a serious lack of understanding about both tragedies....

i have a good grasp of both tragedies thank you !!, i was just asking why its cool to march for italian anrchists but not irish civil rights marchers,people seem to hold more credance to things when they happen far away and are romantisised.

 

[broken arm]

sorry byrneos im gonna shut up now!! its a bit shit talking about this on the expressionless internet..

 

[mazzyianne]

ok were getting a little tied down on the imponderables of the situation. can put this to you. would you think that your time would be better spent working on development projects or charities or for NGO's etc rather than violent protesting. personally i am tired of protesting and not getting anywhere because there are so many things you can do each and every day that will help the world.

I only just got around to reading this thread, a bit late if u really are gonna stop but i guess it's an interesting and complicated argument. Dont you think it's possible to protest and to do positive constructive things? I have a problem with protesting that I've explained to many people before in that it is a controlled release of anger and I feel like we are being humoured by 'the state' rather than listened to.

There is something else beyond merely protesting needed, if 100,000 people marched in Dublin against the war and it made no difference at all. I'm not saying that violence is the answer but as it stands the voice of 'the opposition' or whatever is not being taken seriously. It is frustrating not to be listened to no matter what you do and I think this is why violence erupts at protests. I think it is misdirected at the police, who are defending those in charge but are scapegoats hiding the real problem.

As for development projects and NGOs, these work within all the values and structures of a system I believe is corrupt and profit based. By directing your energy into these you are trying to change tiny parts of the problems in the world instead of looking at the bigger picture. If it is true that another world is possible then surely looking at the possibilities for society is more productive.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[no_exit]

There is something else beyond merely protesting needed, if 100,000 people marched in Dublin against the war and it made no difference at all

well, revolutions never happened through protests, and isn't what direct action is ultimately about? trying to bring about a revolution so we can move towards change?

the thing about violence in protests is that it seems like most people aren't being violent for the right reasons; a lot of protesters are just angry teenagers looking to "smash things up" to release their "inner struggles".

 

[broken arm]

As for development projects and NGOs, these work within all the values and structures of a system I believe is corrupt and profit based. By directing your energy into these you are trying to change tiny parts of the problems in the world instead of looking at the bigger picture. If it is true that another world is possible then surely looking at the possibilities for society is more productive.

fair enough but i look at it differently. if i came to you now and said there is a massive civil war in Liberia, has been for years and the region is on the version of collapse. millions of people need food, shelter, medicine and clean water. we need to get these supplies to these people and somehow keep the security i.e. stop ourselves and the people we are trying to save being killed and all our supplies stolen. what would you do. what could you do. would you walk away from the structures that are at hand to save those people because you dont see eye to eye.

This may sound preachy but it is the way it is. ive got tired of just 'looking' at possibilities and started to face up to some facts. sometimes trying to look at and comprehend the big picture you miss the things you can change right in front of you. as i said i spent a little time in russia - that was working with street kids and orphans in a region near siberia. the time was short and the grand effect on the state of russia, its homeless and its system as a whole was negligible but it did have an effect on the kids i was in contact with (it was with an ongoing project that took kids off the streets into well run shelters and got them into school, jobs etc.). so i realised that that short time was better spent doing something rather than pondering of the possibilites of change for sytem as a whole.

i still think protests are important. not to bring about immediate change but to remind us and the people we are protesting against of our agenda and purpose. not smashing someone elses property or smashing cops faces in.

 

[borzo]

Thanks for all the info... so many interesting points

 

[Malarky]

so i realised that that short time was better spent doing something rather than pondering of the possibilites of change for sytem as a whole.

Surely if you don't try and change the system as a whole there'll always be the conditions to produce, for example, the street kids in Russia you worked with. By not tackling the bigger picture as well, you'll find yourself constantly trying to patch up victims of the new world order while its business as usual for the ruling class.
That's why NGOs are so fucked - they try to work side-by-side with governments respectably to sort out the worst effects of the governments own policies, when the fact is the reason its all in such a mess is that the government has power in the first place. One of the ways NGOs keep their resepctability with the government is to denounce so-called "violent protestors" - this divides the activists, legitimises the governments brutality and keeps the big wages rolling in for the directors of the NGOs.

You seem to be thinking in a similiar liberal fashion, broken arm.

 

[broken arm]

That's why NGOs are so fucked - they try to work side-by-side with governments respectably to sort out the worst effects of the governments own policies, when the fact is the reason its all in such a mess is that the government has power in the first place. QUOTE]

my point is when you are struggling for power which you probably couldnt handle anyway people are dying, starving etc. you have to keep your eye on the bigger while dealing with the situation at hand.

 

[broken arm]

also, of the hundreds of activist groups worldwide i see very few that provide any practical help to those they claim to care so much about.

 

[Malarky]

my point is when you are struggling for power which you probably couldnt handle anyway people are dying, starving etc.

I'm not struggling for power, I'm an anarchist - I don't want one group of people to have power over another, that's the whole point. And people will continue to die, starve etc in incomprehensible numbers if we don't try and change the current world order. Your stint in Russia was laudable, but street kids will continue to exist - it's like trying to stick a plaster on cancer.

also, of the hundreds of activist groups worldwide i see very few that provide any practical help to those they claim to care so much about.

Broken arm, I'd love to be able to be of some help to everyone who was being oppressed or in hardship right now all over the world, but I can't. It's impossible to be everywhere and do everything. My point is its an excercise in futility to provide aid, programs, whatever only to small sections of our world if you don't actually want and strive to change the circumstances that caused them to end up in that situation. It just propogates the vicious cycle. And as for activist groups not providing any practical help, just off the top of my head, what about Anarchist Black Cross, Food Not Bombs, the observers in Palestine & Chiapas, Refugee Forum, Reclaim the Streets alongside the Liverpool Dockers, 1 in 12 club/Class War financially & practically supporting the Miners - there's more examples if you look. One of the main strands of Anarchism is mutual aid, and it has a proud history of it.

 

[broken arm]

this is going to get interesting and difficult if we are to discuss the merits and practicalities of an anarchistic ideology. but my experience of the anarchistic ideology may work well on small scale and i can through maybe a dozen real life situations show where the anarchistic ideology and practice is pointless in the extreme.

are those groups you mentioned not providing the same service as many NGO's but on an even smaller scale. Take my example of the war in Liberia how do you imagine the principle of autonomous self governance and denouncment of all else is going to feed, water, heal etc millions of people and resolve the political and economic crisis. You mentioned the miners - do the anarchists support an industry and a mighty polluting industry at that(but thats beside the point). what do you expect to happen by supporting an industry or merely obseving a situation (palastine). you also mentioned the chiapas - are the EZLN not the Zapatista Army of National Liberation as opposed to an anarchist group.

 

[the strange guy]

Look lads, why don't we settle this over a hot, friendly wank?

 

[Chunky D]

i think they did wank and it came out on this message board in the form of a political debate which belongs on the politics board.

 

[subbuteo !]

i think they did wank and it came out on this message board in the form of a political debate which belongs on the politics board.

im enjoying this game of verbal chess , keep it here not the politics board .. more ploitics for the punks

 

[geoffry gomez]

you're not punks, you're fuckin' hippies! the lot of ya!

fuck that greazy, guinea, WOP bastard! fuck ALL italians! for that matter.......fuck all of you!

 

[D0njo]

greas

greasy-italiean-anarcho-hippy-commie-bastard-dolescroungin'-beatnic-guinea-WOP bastardsssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[Cormcolash]

I think its good that stuff like this is being discussed here, after all punk rock should be strongly connected to politics and I don't see any reason why a political discussion like this should be confined to the politics board, which hardly anyone seems to use anyway.

 

[Malarky]

Yawn

my experience of the anarchistic ideology may work well on small scale and i can through maybe a dozen real life situations show where the anarchistic ideology and practice is pointless in the extreme.

I don't know; while it lasted in Spain it worked pretty well.

are those groups you mentioned not providing the same service as many NGO's but on an even smaller scale.

No, not at all. NGO's serve to legitimise governments - their ethos is the world would be alright if we just changed a little bit of it, within the system.

And of course anarchist practical help is on a small scale, they aren't bankrolled by millions of pounds/euros, they don't have directors getting 50,000 p/a, they do it for solidarity not wages. And while they do it, they also try and change the conditions that caused the problems in the first place. Ever heard of prevention, not cure?

Take my example of the war in Liberia how do you imagine the principle of autonomous self governance and denouncment of all else is going to feed, water, heal etc millions of people and resolve the political and economic crisis.

In the short term of course its not. I never suggested it would. Liberia's at a crisis point, it seems a bit stupid to argue against anarchism by trying to make it immediately solve a country's very serious problems and then smiling knowingly when it can't. But what's your solution? To go in working for an NGO, build a well or two, teach a few hundred people to read? Would that work?

What is your politics anyway, broken arm. You've keeping kinda quiet about that. Do you believe in democracy? American style?

How do you think that country got in the state its in? People fighting for power. Anarchism isn't a short, sharp answer to everything. It's something I believe we should work toward, and its probably going to be in small steps. And I also believe a lot of these problems we've been mentioning, war, hunger, homelessness, lack of education, etc etc would disappear in an anarchist society.

You mentioned the miners - do the anarchists support an industry and a mighty polluting industry at that(but thats beside the point).

Have you ever tried to find out about any of this stuff you're so happy to spout off about? It wasn't about supporting the industry you nob, it was about supporting the workers. It was about standing up to Thatcher. It was about trying not to let thousands of men face hardship, whole villages and ways of life being destroyed.

what do you expect to happen by...merely obseving a situation (palastine).

Taken from an article about the International Solidarity Movement:

How is it that an organization with 60 people volunteering in the Occupied Territories has managed to invoke such fear in the Israeli Defense Forces, the fourth most powerful army in the world? What exactly is the IDF afraid of?

In less than two years of ISM’s presence here, the movement has welcomed over 1,000 observers from all over the world, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, and elsewhere. Almost 20 percent of the volunteers have been Jewish. The average age is over 30 — many are over 50, and there have even been volunteers in their 70s. They come from all walks of life to support justice. Israelis, too, have worked with ISM and have faced the same levels of violence from soldiers and settlers. It is this disparate collection of concerned individuals who have caused such consternation in the corridors of power in Tel Aviv.

Daily news confirms the suspicion that Israeli authorities want no more
foreign witnesses to their actions in occupied Palestine. On Thursday a new policy went into effect that all foreigners entering the Gaza Strip must sign a waiver to absolve the Israeli army of any responsibility should they be killed or wounded while there, in effect giving the Israeli soldiers permission to shoot them. Three foreigners have been killed or critically injured by the Israeli army in the last two months.

It seems difficult to escape the conclusion that the Israeli government is scared of nonviolent resistance, scared of witnesses to their crimes. Sixty international observers and 10 Palestinian coordinators have scared the world’s fourth-most powerful army into taking draconian measures to try and stop them. It’s testimony to the effectiveness of their work. They will keep coming.

you also mentioned the chiapas - are the EZLN not the Zapatista Army of National Liberation as opposed to an anarchist group.

Read more carefully - I said 'observers' in Chiapas, again trying to stop massacres and the like. I never said EZLN were anarchist.


Oh, and for those who think this thread is in the wrong section - up the fucking punks!