Carlo Giuliani protest.. (2 Viewers)

[broken arm]

i didnt know how to upload images until now. these images show the police van being attacked. I dont know if this is the best of taste but it shows the situation just before the shooting. looks pretty fucked to me. it may have been excessive force - it may have been self defence - it certainly wasnt an excecution as some have said. but im not surprised somebody was shot.

 

[ian bastardcore]

I think he is more than an "activist" at this stage, he is more of a symbol ....... but that's just my opinion

to be honest id say hes less than active these days ....

 

[subbuteo !]

my last post was just to stir the shit ,fan the flames of debate....personally i think its sad hes dead and all but he was no idiot he took the risk....as for "carlo wasnt a martyr he was one of us" i dont think he was one of ye i can't picture youse doing what he did ...he played for real....


"can you explain the police/assisted assisted uprising against Milosevic and the army/police/people counter-coup in venezuela etc."

just 1 question these cops and army are they not the same people who kept these regimes in power for so long in the first place?

 

[seaners]

"can you explain the police/assisted assisted uprising against Milosevic and the army/police/people counter-coup in venezuela etc."

In the Milosevic case how about it being due to economic trends/social changes/local politics creating an atmosphere where the majority of the people thought that if the situation was allowed to continue, then it would be worse for them than radical change would be. A reversal of the 'Well things aren't great now but I don't know what would happen if there was a major upheaval, and this uncertainty is worrying because I have three kids to feed and a mortgage to repay, therefore I'll just keep quiet and hope the situation gets better' attitude which I figure is the reason why most people aren't revolutionaries. Anyway, a critical mass is created, the army/police/local politicians realise that change is coming quickly because the regime is unable to contain protest and, international interests (ie the US empire) withdraw backing because they dislike instability (people might get too radical and start appropriating US property) and decides to back whoever can 'stabilize' the area as quickly as possible in the interests of the worlds oligarchy. The local arseholes realise this and jostle to fill the power vacuum and seize new positions of power and wealth for themselves that are an improvement on their current state. Hence the apparent police support for the people's revolution. You will note that as soon as the chess game is played out, the positions are decided and the majority of the people throw their tentative support behind the new leaders in the hope that things have changed for the better and they can keep their children fed, that the police and army will clamp down viciously (as usual) on anybody that dares to question the validity of the new situation.

 

[rape the drummer]

jaysus- just because i thought more people should have attended the protest!

 

[broken arm]

just 1 question these cops and army are they not the same people who kept these regimes in power for so long in the first place?

to a degree. but the system they operate under is very different from ours. im many countries joining the police or army is a matter of survival. without the cushy welfare state and the realities of actual poverty a job in the army/police is a welcome and probably only source of income. I spent some time in russia and the cops there only get fifty dollars a month and cities like moscow are not cheap places to live.

for many the 'choice' of job or welfare doesnt exist. your family starves or you join the army. simple as that.

 

[subbuteo !]

to a degree. but the system they operate under is very different from ours. im many countries joining the police or army is a matter of survival. without the cushy welfare state and the realities of actual poverty a job in the army/police is a welcome and probably only source of income. I spent some time in russia and the cops there only get fifty dollars a month and cities like moscow are not cheap places to live.

for many the 'choice' of job or welfare doesnt exist. your family starves or you join the army. simple as that.

so they are the same army/police.

 

[broken arm]

i think thats obvious. isnt it.

 

[subbuteo !]

i think thats obvious. isnt it.

to a degree. but the system they operate under is very different from ours. im many countries joining the police or army is a matter of survival. without the cushy welfare state and the realities of actual poverty a job in the army/police is a welcome and probably only source of income. I spent some time in russia and the cops there only get fifty dollars a month and cities like moscow are not cheap places to live.

for many the 'choice' of job or welfare doesnt exist. your family starves or you join the army. simple as that.

1 i know some families that might disagree with cushy welfarestate....for many the 'choice' of job doesnt exist .your family starves or you join the cushy welfare state


2 ''simple as that'' is it really cause theres lots of people who choose
not to join the army or police that oppresses their own people...

3 ''to a degree'' they are or they aren't simple as that.

4 when i asked ''just 1 question these cops and army are they not the same people who kept these regimes in power for so long in the first place?" i was making the point that the example you made about all cops not been bad was shit because if someone spent years keeping you down and then when you got the upper hand wanted to be your mate would you just say ok forgive and forget....its ok you helped to oppress me for years cause you helped me to free myself when you saw that you might just lose your cushy job cause change was coming anyway if you liked it or not.

 

[nooleen]

It's a shame that you have such an bad attitude "broken arm" how do you ever expect to change anything by sniping and accusing the ppl you should be fighting alongside. Lose your ego.

it looks to me like 'broken arm' is much better able to back up his/her argument than most others, except maybe byrneos/seaners

 

[W.]

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/07/274146.html

"please come to genoa again" - carlo's parents.

 

[stephenoblunt]

it looks to me like 'broken arm' is much better able to back up his/her argument than most others, except maybe byrneos/seaners

I think I have to agree here, I knew little/nothing about this event before this discussion, but broken arm does seem very convincing.

DISCLAIMER - I or any future clones of myself have not or do not condone anything in the world ever or uncondone anything in the world ever. Or in space...or anywhere else I don't know about...I mean I probably wouldn't if I knew about that place...

 

[Shorty]

Didn't Nelson Mandela kill two policemen?

"blue bloc - black bloc - pink bloc. fucking fashion parade" What!?! You're not serious are you? I can just see the protesters getting up in the morning going, hmm, what should I wear today? Yes protester chic is all the rage now, I just hope that what I'm wearing doesn't clash with the riot police's full body armour? Oh, I just love that dress you're wearing! What is it? Police blue with a hint of tear gas grey?

And as for violence begets violence? In what way does that work? Is it the police attacking protesters first or protesters attacking police first? What about the caribineri attacking pacifists and the pink bloc as well as those partaking in a sit down protest?

"the point of these protests is to show that there is an alternative to the might is right form of rule. that there can be a system based on equity and respect." I would tend to believe that these protests are about attempting to shut down these organisations/meetings, not about alternatives. The showing of alternatives is going on in the counter summits and discussions being held not on the streets but elsewhere in the city at the time, and in places such as Porto Alegre at the WSF or at PGA global conferences. So what you're really talking about is tactics? Why is it always portrayed as random violence? When in fact it is quite targeted. Why is Jose Bove some sort of hero figure for "the movement" and the black bloc demonised when both have taken part in the destruction of McDonald's "restaurants"? And how come of all the cars burnt out in Genoa none were claimed for?

Protests alone don't create alternatives, people do, when they come back from these things and start doing something for themselves or others. And this may not be about creating alternatives on the scale of Chiapas or the MST in Brazil. But even something like Disco Disco is helping to create alternatives. Or a start at least.

"the army/police/people counter-coup in venezuela etc." Sorry, but wasn't it the military, or at least part of it, who led the coup in the first place.

And also the police/military is an important aspect of this little debate, especially if you look at South America where there is a continuing blurring of the line between the two. Also, after the "arrestees" at the Bourdonette camp in Lausanne were taken to police and other compounds, these compounds were guarded by military personnel with fully automatic weapons, not to mention the red zone. This is only speaking from personal experience, but the increasing militarisation of these large scale summits is alarming to say the least.

Also, why was a raw recruit issued with live ammunition and not trained to take someone down non-lethally?

 

[Chunky D]

Also, why was a raw recruit issued with live ammunition and not trained to take someone down non-lethally?

Carlo Giuliani was murdered, plain and simple you'll have a hard time defending a murderer to me. This murderer and his coleagues went out with weapons designed to murder and i'm sure most of them were quite willing to use them to take a human life to defend a bunch of fucking scum bags and he did. Does anyone know where that pig is now? Dead or alive? Facing charges?

"Protests alone don't create alternatives, people do, when they come back from these things and start doing something for themselves or others. And this may not be about creating alternatives on the scale of Chiapas or the MST in Brazil. But even something like Disco Disco is helping to create alternatives. Or a start at least."

I would have thought that what happened/is happening in Chiapas or elsewhere could not happen here or elsewhere because they happened due to a particular set of conditions, i could be wrong. I would have to agree about the Dico Disco thing because if positive things like that begin to happen peoples attitudes will slowly change ..... hopefully!

 

[broken arm]

This murderer and his coleagues went out with weapons designed to murder and i'm sure most of them were quite willing to use them to take a human life to defend a bunch of fucking scum bags and he did.

you cant deny the pictures look like somebody defending themselves as opposed to a person wandering around looking for somebody to kill.

 

[Shorty]

Carlo Giuliani was murdered, plain and simple you'll have a hard time defending a murderer to me. This murderer and his coleagues went out with weapons designed to murder and i'm sure most of them were quite willing to use them to take a human life to defend a bunch of fucking scum bags and he did. Does anyone know where that pig is now? Dead or alive? Facing charges?!

I wasn't trying to defend his actions, as you say a killing is a killing. Also, that is an interesting question, what did happen to the policeman that shot him?

I would have thought that what happened/is happening in Chiapas or elsewhere could not happen here or elsewhere because they happened due to a particular set of conditions, i could be wrong. I would have to agree about the Dico Disco thing because if positive things like that begin to happen peoples attitudes will slowly change ..... hopefully!

Also agree, that's why I said "not ... on the scale of". But you're also right about there being a need for certain conditions. But I don't think we're going to be seeing economic meltdown like in Argentina, which has resulted in things like the Piqueteros, workers taking over factories, neighbourhood assemblies, etc.

And wasn't it three students that got killed in Papua New Guinea, not two?

 

[broken arm]

ok were getting a little tied down on the imponderables of the situation. can put this to you. would you think that your time would be better spent working on development projects or charities or for NGO's etc rather than violent protesting. personally i am tired of protesting and not getting anywhere because there are so many things you can do each and every day that will help the world.

what happened in genoa highlighted for me the levels of frustration and hopelessness of the movement in one stupid mistake. and i cant see it as state condoned murder or an execution as some people want to see it.

there is too much happening now that needs attention and focussing on the big 'event' just is no good. i urge any of you who have any sense of ugency to work on something constructive and any of you who are caught up in the police state paranoia travel to some of the poor places of the world and open your eyes.

i hear they were looking for volunteer teachers (from crafts to english) in East Timor a few months ago how many applied? because i guarantee if you worked on something you would see change and you can channel your anger and drop the sense of hopelessness.

 

[broken arm]

And wasn't it three students that got killed in Papua New Guinea, not two?

true. i was typing too fast. but do you understand why i mentioned it.

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/imf/asia/pngprotest.htm

 

[D0njo]

pop

i'm in agreement with mr. broken arm, not with everything but with what he said about working constructively and the like. if only i weren't such a lazy bastard

 

[wierd sister]

"Does anyone know where that pig is now? Dead or alive? Facing charges?"
He was let off all charges, as apparently he wasn't trying to shoot mr.giuliani, but fired a warning shot at the ground, which accidentaly richocheted into his skull....