Books to read before you're 16 (1 Viewer)

[nlgbbbblth]

What about some of those short novels they used to make us read in school. Can't remember all of them, but I remember read Paddy Kavanagh's Tarry Flynn, Shadows on our Skin by Jennifer Johnson (if you want to pick Irish authors), Steinbeck's The Pearl, Animal Farm, etc.

The modern movels they were called when I was doing the Leaving.
Option C in the fiction section. Always a general question. Best avoided.

John Steinbeck - The Pearl, F Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby, L.P. Hartley - The Shrimp And The Anemone, Ernest Hemingway - The Old Man And The Sea, George Orwell - Animal Farm, Evelyn Waugh - A Handful Of Dust, James Stephens - The Charwoman's Daughter, William Golding - The Lord Of The Flies, Francis MacManus - The Greatest Of These

 

[wild_cat]

Everything by Beatrix Potter I know that they are very baby book-esq but most of them fucking rock , Squirel Nutkin was the funniest thing id ever heard when my ma read it to me when I was small and I still smile when I think of Nutkin tickleing the Owl with a nettle.

 

[oh shit]

oh and anyone who thinks His Dark Materials is better than Harry Potter has a poor grasp of reality

and anyone who makes sweeping generalisations should be disappeared

 

[Audiodelic]

The modern movels they were called when I was doing the Leaving.
Option C in the fiction section. Always a general question. Best avoided.

No way! Easiest way to pick up points ever.

I'd forgotten the Charwoman's Daughter, good book. I think they changed a couple every year because I definitely remember reading Tarry Flynn.

 

[egg_]

Would you mind elaborating on why you think that is? I'm honestly interested because you're the first person I've 'met' who has read both and prefers Harry Potter.

I got de-repped for saying this by carcass
Hmmmph
Lots of reasons, really. Harry Potter has much more lovable characters. Character deaths in HP were devastating, only sad in HDM. Also HDM is so overblown and takes itself so seriously, HP is much more fun.
My real problem with HDM though was the incoherence of the plot:

**PLOT SPOILERS AHEAD**

The was so much buildup to Lyra being the chosen one etc, but she didn't actually do anything except for fall in love (in a very sentimental and plain daft kind of a way) and even that didn't actually solve the problem of the disappearing dust. I thought the book was going to blow my mind entirely when it was revealed that yer man was going off to try and kill God, but then it just failed to live up to its promise, and that strand of the plot never got tied in satisfactorily with what Lyra was getting up to and the whole disappearing dust thing. Lots of really good ideas in the book, but ultimately he (or she? can't remember the sex of the author) just never managed to draw them all together and the end was, for me, a pretty big let-down

 

[nlgbbbblth]

No way! Easiest way to pick up points ever.

I'd forgotten the Charwoman's Daughter, good book. I think they changed a couple every year because I definitely remember reading Tarry Flynn.

I read them but decided long beforehand to answer the Castle Rackrent question. Far easier than Wuthering Heights.

 

[Audiodelic]

I read them but decided long beforehand to answer the Castle Rackrent question. Far easier than Wuthering Heights.

Thought I had successfully avoided Castle Rackrent until UCD. Bastard English Department.

 

[eucrid eucrow]

I got de-repped for saying this by carcass
Hmmmph
Lots of reasons, really. Harry Potter has much more lovable characters. Character deaths in HP were devastating, only sad in HDM. Also HDM is so overblown and takes itself so seriously, HP is much more fun.
My real problem with HDM though was the incoherence of the plot:

**PLOT SPOILERS AHEAD**

The was so much buildup to Lyra being the chosen one etc, but she didn't actually do anything except for fall in love (in a very sentimental and plain daft kind of a way) and even that didn't actually solve the problem of the disappearing dust. I thought the book was going to blow my mind entirely when it was revealed that yer man was going off to try and kill God, but then it just failed to live up to its promise, and that strand of the plot never got tied in satisfactorily with what Lyra was getting up to and the whole disappearing dust thing. Lots of really good ideas in the book, but ultimately he (or she? can't remember the sex of the author) just never managed to draw them all together and the end was, for me, a pretty big let-down

It's easy to be disappointed by the book if you're taking things so literally. Lyra had two prophecies to fulfill: ending destiny by freeing the lost souls in the world of the dead and to fall into 'temptation', fall in love, become the new Eve, halt the escape of Dust, close the abyss and leave Will forever. There's a lot of symbolism at work within these elements that have to be considered and this is why it's hard to argue with you when you say that HDM takes itself so seriously, while HP is much more fun. Pullman had a message he wanted to communicate with these books and they deal brilliantly with some massive issues; HP, without meaning to be dismissive of a series you obviously really like, to me is fun, but pointless fun.

I can agree with you to an extent that it is disappointing that the implied 'war on God' doesn't really take place, but this ties in with what I have said - the symbolic nature of the novel is much more important than a literal usurping of the Kingdom of Heaven. And remember, the Authority is not literally meant to be God, again it's symbolic and open to interpretation.

Also, in my opinion none of the character deaths in HP are anywhere near as devastating as the end of The Amber Spyglass when Lyra and Will are separated - necessary but brutal ending.

 

[egg_]

It's easy to be disappointed by the book if you're taking things so literally. Lyra had two prophecies to fulfill: ending destiny by freeing the lost souls in the world of the dead and to fall into 'temptation', fall in love, become the new Eve, halt the escape of Dust, close the abyss and leave Will forever.

So dead people now actually die rather than get locked up in limbo - but how does that mean that destiny is ended? Taking things literally (as I do, no doubt), I expected "ending destiny" to mean that up until that point things were pre-ordained, and after destiny ended they no longer were. But the transition never actually happened. And Lyra and Will only temporarily halt the loss of dust, it's the angels who close the abyss - why didn't they just ask the knife bearer how to close the holes between worlds when they realised the dust was being lost? I felt like an awful lot was promised by these books, but very little was delivered

There's a lot of symbolism at work within these elements that have to be considered

So what am I missing? I don't understand what symbolism you mean - it's very easy to call a girl in a book "Eve" and for that to seem to make the novel more weighty, but in the end all that happens is a 15 year old falls in love, something that surely happens every day of the week

Pullman had a message he wanted to communicate with these books and they deal brilliantly with some massive issues

I don't get it. What are the massive issues? The idea of consciousness particles is a really good one, the idea of God being the first conscious being again is interesting (though kinda nonsensical in the context of the real world), but I don't have any idea of what the guy was ultimately driving at - the whole thing was just really muddled by the end

Also, in my opinion none of the character deaths in HP are anywhere near as devastating as the end of The Amber Spyglass when Lyra and Will are separated - necessary but brutal ending.

I completely disagree. Ah I dunno, maybe I take love for granted, having been in a loving relationship for 15 years. Lyra and Will are FIFTEEN, dude! Everyone gets their hearts broken at that age. It was sad, but neither brutal nor all that necessary (the book made up its own rules, the angels could have easily said it was ok to leave two holes open)

HP has heart, that's why I love it. In HDM all the women are gorgeous and all the men are strong, no-one is cowardly and everyone talks in verse (almost) - it was unputdownable, but to me it was ultimately empty. Please explain to me why I'm wrong

 

[snakybus]

Hey you guys should just play some 3-D chess or something to settle the argument.

 

[egg_]

Hey you guys should just play some 3-D chess or something to settle the argument.

Wow! Three-dimensional chess! I hadn't realised science had made such strides

 

[snakybus]

Chess science is way ahead of the game.

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

the Koran - 80 thousand times.

actually, make that 10 million.
http://img.infoplease.com/images/taliban.jpg

 

[thairock]

Call of the wild- Jack London
Iliad-Homer
Never Cry Wolf - Farley Mowat
Three Men in a Boat: To Say Nothing of the Dog! - Jerome Klapka Jerome
The Changeover - Margaret Mahy
Catch-22 - Joseph Heller
Anne of Green Gables - Lucy Maud Montgomery
Of Mice And Men - John Steinbeck
Down and Out in Paris and London - George Orwell
The Jungle Book - Rudyard Kipling
Any of the Brer Rabbit stories - Joel Chandler Harris
The 13½ Lives of Captain Bluebear - Walter Moers

 

[eucrid eucrow]

So dead people now actually die rather than get locked up in limbo - but how does that mean that destiny is ended?

It means that human beings are now able to decide for themselves what happens after they die; they can choose to stay in the land of the dead or become part of the natural world forever. Pullman is a committed atheist and his main gripe with religion is the sanctions it puts on people; he believes that free-will should be exercised as much as possible in the time that we have here and that it should not be up to anyone other than ourselves to decide what we should or should not do. In the novel, Lyra and Will destroy forever the stranglehold the church has on people by exposing it's afterlife as a sham and giving those who die the opportunity to exercise their free will.

[/QUOTE]Taking things literally (as I do, no doubt), I expected "ending destiny" to mean that up until that point things were pre-ordained, and after destiny ended they no longer were. But the transition never actually happened.[/QUOTE]

Destiny is ended by Lyra ensuring that no-one else ever has spend eternity trapped in the church-created Land of the Dead.

[/QUOTE]And Lyra and Will only temporarily halt the loss of dust, it's the angels who close the abyss - why didn't they just ask the knife bearer how to close the holes between worlds when they realised the dust was being lost? [/QUOTE]

If you remember, before Will the knife bearers were the one's causing the leaking of dust by leaving so many worlds open and using the knife for their own gain.

[/QUOTE]I felt like an awful lot was promised by these books, but very little was delivered[/QUOTE]

That's fair enough, as I said before I think we're reading these books differently.

[/QUOTE]I don't get it. What are the massive issues? The idea of consciousness particles is a really good one, the idea of God being the first conscious being again is interesting (though kinda nonsensical in the context of the real world),[/QUOTE]

Massive issues like the authoritarian power and restrictive nature of the church, the relationship between the body and the soul, the importance of physical pleasure (temptation is a good thing in the novel), freedom through knowledge and growth and maturation.

[/QUOTE]the whole thing was just really muddled by the end[/QUOTE]

I can see how that could be perceived but I think Pullman does tie up things well, just not in the way you wanted him to do so. There are some things that arn't fully explained or arguably left open to interpretation, but if Pullman was going to fully explain each of these the book would probably be another 1000 pages long. Although on this point, he is in the process of writing 'The Book of Dust' which will serve as a background for many of the peripheral characters and explain some of those things neglected in HDM.


[/QUOTE]In HDM all the women are gorgeous and all the men are strong, no-one is cowardly [/QUOTE]

That's something I'd never considered before, nice one, must look into that.

[/QUOTE]Please explain to me why I'm wrong[/QUOTE]

I don't think you're wrong, I just disagree with you.

N.B. I'm really tired and hungover writing this but I wanted to reply. Not sure if I explained everything as well as I wanted to but I hope you get the general idea where I'm coming from.

 

[thairock]

Call of the wild- Jack London
Iliad-Homer
Never Cry Wolf - Farley Mowat
Three Men in a Boat: To Say Nothing of the Dog! - Jerome Klapka Jerome
The Changeover - Margaret Mahy
Catch-22 - Joseph Heller
Anne of Green Gables - Lucy Maud Montgomery
Of Mice And Men - John Steinbeck
Down and Out in Paris and London - George Orwell
The Jungle Book - Rudyard Kipling
Any of the Brer Rabbit stories - Joel Chandler Harris
The 13½ Lives of Captain Bluebear - Walter Moers

Oh..and I nearly forgot...
...A Short History of Nearly Everything - Bill Bryson

 

[Maxx Stone]

The bible