Bintifada (1 Viewer)

[pete]

when she was eliminated in the final round by a FF cnadidate

next time.... next time....

 

[spiritualtramp]

Not saying that people on the ground probably don't have genuine grievances about the whole bin thing, but the reason that the protest has escalated to the point it has more to do with Sinn Fein, the Socialist Party and the SWP competing to outdo each other in being leftier-than-thou.

And gosh, is that the local elections next year? What a coincidence...

I'd say its more to do with the green party being clare daly's main opposition in her constituency .

could everybody here supporting miss daly and mr higgins kindly question why they made no suggestions for alternatives to the bin tax when it was being discussed . perhaps because the sp wanted to make a song and dance about the issue ?

its such a coincidence theres elections next year !

 

[broken arm]

slight side step, the ability for people to be elected to government by pushing on a single issue and policy is kind of scary, really. people get caught up on minor issues and forget the bigger picture. But hey that proportional representation for ya.

 

[W.]

...Can you say 'upcoming-election' and 'some-people-will-do-anything-for-a-vote'?

but this campaign has been going on since before the last election?

 

[pete]

With regard to the question of opportunistic timing & next year's local elections, there's an article on the Socialist Party website from Spring 2001 discussing tactics that might be applied to the impending anti refuse charges campaign:

WATER CHARGES were strongly resisted throughout the country since 1983. In the end it was the intense battle waged in Dublin for three years which resulted in their abolition in 1996. There were many facets of this campaign but this article will try to outline the key lessons that can be learned and on that basis pose the tasks facing the new movement against refuse charges.

http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/viewspring01.htm#wat

But let's see. What could an "alternative" be? Hmmm.. maybe it's the taxes we've been paying all along?

I seem to remember something about "not wanting to pay twice" and "double taxation" being mentioned at some point by the anti bin tax campaign.

 

[pete]

From Indymedia:

Joe Higgins Statement
by Socialist Party Thursday, Sep 25 2003, 6:59pm

25th September, 2003


Joe Higgins infuriated over Begg's "Stab in the back".

Prison rules do not allow Socialist Party T.D. Joe Higgins to speak to the media or issue Press Statements.

To-day Joe Higgins expressed his frustration at being gagged but told a Socialist Party Colleague Mick Barry who visited him in Mountjoy that he was "infuriated" over the attack which ICTU General Secretary David Begg made on the Anti Bin Tax Campaign.

He said that Mr Begg's statement was a "deliberate stab in the back to the hundreds of thousands of working people and their families in the Greater Dublin area who are demanding the immediate suspension of the non-collection of refuse bins from householders boycotting the bin tax and the abolition of the tax in favour of proper funding of local authority services from the taxes workers pay Government."

"Who is Mr. Begg representing?" Joe Higgins asked. "The big majority of the trade union membership affiliated to I.C.T.U. have through their National Conferences adopted a clear policy of opposition to double taxation in the form of local taxes. So Mr. Begg's attack is expressing his view and not that of the membership he is supposed to represent."

Joe Higgins said it was "an incredible situation that not only is the Anti Bin Tax Campaign under attack from the Government, and from leading members of the so called Opposition in the Dáil but now the leadership of the trade union movement, flying in the face of its membership is prepared to be a mudguard for the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats Government."´

Joe Higgins told his visitor "Is it any wonder that with the leadership of the Irish Congress of Trade Union in its pockets, this Government can feel free to give massive tax breaks to big business while piling on a plethora of stealth taxes on ordinary working people; can abolish the first time house buyers grants while allowing obscene profiteering in the housing market create endless misery for the scores of thousands now priced out of a home".

Joe Higgins said that Mr. Begg tried to raise the issue of proper funding for local authorities but his attack on those fighting the bin tax means the Government has no problem carrying on hitting the usual suspects for taxation.

Joe Higgins accused Mr. Begg of "gross dishonesty" in alleging that the Anti Bin Tax Campaign might cause privatisation of the bin collection services in Dublin. "The reality is that the dozens of local authorities which have privatised domestic refuse collection did so after they had forced a bin tax regime and browbeat households into compliance."

"In any case Mr. Begg has no moral authority to speak as an anti privatisation champion having been himself a willing tool in the preparation of Telecom Eireann ? a vital national asset ? for privatisation a scheme which burned thousands of small people conned into purchasing shares.

Joe Higgins accused Mr. Begg of feebly attempting to justify the bin tax in environmental grounds. "Mr. Begg falls for the line that the bin tax is a serious environmental policy ? in fact it is a substitute for a policy and in reality a crude revenue raising measure. Finally, Joe Higgins asked, "after 16 years of so called partnership between trade union representatives, government and employers, it would seem that Mr. Begg doesn't remember who he is supposed to defend or represent. If he couldn't bring himself to articulate the feeling of the majority of trade union membership in opposition to the bin tax, he should have chosen a shamed silence over open treachery".

 

[spiritualtramp]

From Indymedia:

"Prison rules do not allow Socialist Party T.D. Joe Higgins to speak to the media or issue Press Statements."


so how did all those quotes get attributed to him them ?

either his visitor recorded him talking

or

somebody else wrote them

 

[pete]

he didn't speak to the media

he didn't issue a press statement

This Mick Barry dude had a chat with him & then went home & wrote a press release about it.

 

[broken arm]

le proteste internationale. v.interesting.


knicked from indymedia again

Pictures of demos can be seen at:
Greece
http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/index2.html?/eng/2003/09/25bins3.html

Belgium
http://www.lsp-mas.be/lsp/2003/22sep_bintifada/

Sweden
http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/index2.html?/eng/2003/09/23sweden.html

Britain
http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/index2.html?/eng/2003/09/23britain.html

 

[P. Littbarski]

correct me if I'm wrong, but we do have the lowest tax rate in europe. The standard rate of tax is 20%. If you compare this to the tax rate in a country which has recycling facilities, good transport infrastructure, decent green areas etc.. all those things that the Irish want (but don't have), you'll find that they usually pay a lot of tax. I'm thinking of countries like Germany, Holland, belgium etc. I think the basic tax rate is around the 35 % level. I'm oversimplifying this point here, but you can't get want you want for nothing. I personally would have no problem paying more tax if it meant that the Government could develop Ireland into a country that isn't lagging 40 years behind other european countries. But thats one thing the current Government won't change drastically because everybody will freak... Now theres obviously more to this than just paying more tax (planning, not having an accountant in charge of the cash like we do at the moment but an economist etc.) but if you want facilities and the infrastructure like the Germans have you'll have to cough up.

The whole Joe Higgins thing is a farce...a bit of peaceful civil disobedience and you're in jail...while Fianna Fáil TD, Mr G.V. Wright who knocked down a woman after having some drinkys last week (broken in 4 places - may need to be amputated) is a free man.

As the Irish Times reports
"The Garda Press Office said that Mr Wright would be prosecuted by summons in the normal way "sometime in the next six months as is usual". Last night, Fianna Fáil sources said Mr Wright told colleagues yesterday he would not invoke constitutional privileges to escape a drink-driving charge."

 

[pete]

"you can't get what you want for nothing"

So... explain to me who's been paying for Dublin's refuse collection up until now?

Nobody's looking for "something for nothing" here.

 

[P. Littbarski]

"you can't get what you want for nothing"

So... explain to me who's been paying for Dublin's refuse collection up until now?

Nobody's looking for "something for nothing" here.

like I said I was oversimplifying the argument. but if the population increases significantly (which it has over the last 10 years for example) there will be more rubbish to deal with, new landfills, incinerators, disposal facilities, recycling facilities etc. will need to be built, more people need to be hired to handle the increased amount of rubbish...and you have to admit that there seems to be more packaging with products now than ever before...i find that I need to empty the rubbish bin in my gaff every 2 days, sometimes even daily and there are only 3 of us living there.

its like getting 50 p from your granny every time you visit her...when you were 10 it was loads of cash, when you were 15 it was a token amount and when you were 20 it was insignificant...

 

[pete]

All valid points, but the bin tax has nothing to do with environmentalism or sustainable waste management policies. It's another tax, and an inequitable one at that.

 

[billygannon]

All valid points, but the bin tax has nothing to do with environmentalism or sustainable waste management policies. It's another tax, and an inequitable one at that.

Well... there's that... and the government are wankers.

 

[broken arm]

All valid points, but the bin tax has nothing to do with environmentalism or sustainable waste management policies. It's another tax, and an inequitable one at that.

how do you explain the fact that the main difference between us and the european countries who have sustainable waste management, great integrated transport systems etc. is that they pay higher taxes than us. There are many elements to this that bring down to value systems as to what people regard as their responsibility and how that fits in within their own political agenda. I was anti-bin tax but I have yet to see how the socialist party have constructively approached the subject to deal with the economic reality....

 

[pete]

how do you explain the fact that the main difference between us and the european countries who have sustainable waste management, great integrated transport systems etc. is that they pay higher taxes than us. There are many elements to this that bring down to value systems as to what people regard as their responsibility and how that fits in within their own political agenda. I was anti-bin tax but I have yet to see how the socialist party have constructively approached the subject to deal with the economic reality....

I can't speak for Socialist Party policy, but I personally believe that as a PAYE tax payer, I should be able to expect certain things to be provided in return from the State - the obvious one's like education & health care, yes, but also the provision of a basic level of waste disposal (on public health grounds if nothing else). The 'economic reality' is that the cost of refuse disposal has been borne by central government funds (ie tax receipts) since 1977. What is different about the situation now? Charlie McCreevy's cutbacks.

I have NO problem with higher taxes in return for a higher level of public services - it's all got to be paid for at the end of the day, obviously - but what I DO have a problem with is the imposition of unfair double charges, levied at a flat rate across all income brackets.

And i'd say the one big difference between us and our more progressive european neighbours is Fianna Fail.

 

[snakybus]

is Bintifada a very tall woman??

 

[broken arm]

The 'economic reality' is that the cost of refuse disposal has been borne by central government funds (ie tax receipts) since 1977. What is different about the situation now? Charlie McCreevy's cutbacks.

The amounts and types of waste and the processes and costs of waste management have changed greatly since 1977. Its fairly cheap to dump everything in the ground, squash it down and pretend it never existed but that cant happen anymore and we are also paying the price for that previous short-sightedness. You cant expect good public services without paying for them first.

I dont agree with the way the tax has been laid out but I think the equation should be on amont of waste produced and not on household income

Im not defending FF and I think the jailing of joe and clare is insanely hyocritical. =/

 

[niallmc]

You cant expect good public services without paying for them first.

What, like a health service? Maybe we should privatise that?
Can we expect to pay for a "good public service" (like having our waste collected) and then have it privatised?
How about really tackling businesses? What about all office waste? This is not solely about waste management.

 

[pete]

You cant expect good public services without paying for them first.

The point is we ARE paying for them first.

I dont agree with the way the tax has been laid out but I think the equation should be on amont of waste produced and not on household income

So basically - the richer you are, the more rubbish you can create?

edit: sorry that should read "... the richer are, the more rubbish you can afford to create? where's the incentivisation in that?"