Cancelled (4 Viewers)

[Cornu Ammonis]

The short answer is that they are not well understood at a clinical level - according to an independent report

Without getting into the ins and outs of Tavistock which is its own thing, if you are prescribed *any* medicine off label, you are in the realm of not well understood. No drug gets to market unless it is safe - and this safety level is fairly high in terms of a bar - but equally medicine moves faster than the underlying research. Once a drug is safe, clinicians will use the drugs for other things based on their understanding of the drug, understanding of the disorder they are treating, understanding of the individual they are treating, and the potential dangers which they will monitor and cease treatment immediately for.

And likely you are taking some medication either off label or that was off label for the use you are taking it for, and is now approved officially for. This is how medicine progresses.

 

[nuke terrorist]

was watching the whole thing live on one screen while doing other things on another screen, and even at the time, while not really paying full attention, I thought, whoa, that one dude is getting a bit handsy. but the subsequent saga is pretty depressing. the players are dead right, they should burn it to the ground sooner than let this guy keep his job.

Same here - watched the medal presentation live and was very uncomfortable with Rubiales touching the players. A hug should have been the very limit of it.
After a huge schism between the squad ('Las 15') last year and the coach / federation, the players brilliantly rose above it and don't deserve this bullshit.

This sadly vindicates the stance of the players who refused to return to the squad.

 

[Unicron]

Fifa has suspended Rubialles

Spanish government has very little direct power over the rfef but the Spanish sports court might do something on Tuesday when they meet.

 

[MacDara]

Fifa has suspended Rubialles

Spanish government has very little direct power over the rfef but the Spanish sports court might do something on Tuesday when they meet.

I was just thinking, the Spanish women JUST WON THE WORLD CUP but he had to make it all about him.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Without getting into the ins and outs of Tavistock which is its own thing,

It's kinda the entire thing

There's everyone at the clinic, who ostensibly wanted the same thing - good healthy outcomes and lives for everyone.
But the idealogues shouted down anyone they disagreed with, calling them terfs/transphobes, to remove them from the discussion and take away their influence.
They got their way and the result was shitty outcomes for kids and a closed clinic that was sorely needed.

If no one can see the parallels between that and only listening to one group of voices doing the same 'terf/transphobe' thing in the larger debate, then I can't make anyone see.

We are all ill-served when debate is shut down by idealogues, but kids with gender identity issues, particularly so.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Fifa has suspended Rubialles

Spanish government has very little direct power over the rfef but the Spanish sports court might do something on Tuesday when they meet.

I was just thinking, the Spanish women JUST WON THE WORLD CUP but he had to make it all about him.

His reaction has been bizarre
Like he's fighting for some principle or something

You're a fucking blazer and no one wants you.

I'm thinking/hoping this will actually end up being even bigger than the world cup win. If all Spain is talking about is shitty men and their shittiness - then maybe no bad thing.
Crappy timing for the winners though. But maybe [thoughtful voice] they will win a greater victory for the women of Spain with their stance.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

It's kinda the entire thing

There's everyone at the clinic, who ostensibly wanted the same thing - good healthy outcomes and lives for everyone.
But the idealogues shouted down anyone they disagreed with, calling them terfs/transphobes, to remove them from the discussion and take away their influence.
They got their way and the result was shitty outcomes for kids and a closed clinic that was sorely needed.

If no one can see the parallels between that and only listening to one group of voices doing the same 'terf/transphobe' thing in the larger debate, then I can't make anyone see.

We are all ill-served when debate is shut down by idealogues, but kids with gender identity issues, particularly so.

I was referring to the idea that the use of these medicines was somehow riskier or out of keeping with medical practice.

 

[ann post]

We are all ill-served when debate is shut down by idealogues.

I keep coming back to UTM's observances a few years ago, that when he was a kid it was the catholics that told him what he could/could say do and he didn't like it, and that energy of shutting folk down if they don't fit the paradigm wasn't going to dissapear just because the catholics are not the unshakable ethical core any more. People who want to give out to people and gain social status will find the arguments that cant be argued with in public and use it to powermonger. at it's core the goal isn't to improve peoples lives, it's to walk the heathens through the villiage.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

Does that not fundamentally misunderstand the arguments being made? Catholics represented an organisation with huge power and financial interests - keeping that power required keeping people into control. In this scenario, you have “ideologues shutting down” Terfs despite *not* being in a position of power - what kind of power do trans people and their allies have when the entire structure of society doesn’t even acknowledge their existence (barring a few concessions). And how is this in any way equivalent to the Catholic Church?

I don’t know, maybe I’m overthinking things but this suggestion that minorities/underrepresented people calling out prejudice is somehow equivalent to a multi-billion euro organisation trying to keep its influence (often in direct opposition of its supposed core values) is just impossible for me to fathom. I guess you can argue that forcing a catholic doctrine is similar to insisting on being allowed to exist and be happy but yikes.

 

[ann post]

If you were to read my post again, would you say i was being specific about trans people and comparing them to the catholic church, or did I make absolutely sure i wasn't singling out the trans people, the anti trans people or any pro or anti group?

The catholic church is a global money machine, but i'm talking about how it functioned in communities in ireland. Those communities can be much smaller than a cluster around a topic on twitter. But in small communities in Ireland where you could be looking at peak interactive group of 300 people, say a word against the church/priest/church interests - some people will turn a blind eye, some will revel in making you wear it.

Effectively I'm not talking about the catholic church, more so i'm talking about the people who revel in making you wear it, and inevitably those are the people who will use it for social climbing in the short term. They will not help with trans rights in the long term.

They used to have the church to give them an arena for that behavior, now they have to find a new arena. Like someone in the current generation with the same personality traits might be anti-catholic yet use it in the exact same way. It's a pattern of behavoir, not necessarily any one banner.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

If you were to read my post again, would you say i was being specific about trans people and comparing them to the catholic church, or did I make absolutely sure i wasn't singling out the trans people, the anti trans people or any pro or anti group?

The catholic church is a global money machine, but i'm talking about how it functioned in communities in ireland. Those communities can be much smaller than a cluster around a topic on twitter. But in small communities in Ireland where you could be looking at peak interactive group of 300 people, say a word against the church/priest/church interests - some people will turn a blind eye, some will revel in making you wear it.

Effectively I'm not talking about the catholic church, more so i'm talking about the people who revel in making you wear it, and inevitably those are the people who will use it for social climbing in the short term. They will not help with trans rights in the long term.

They used to have the church to give them an arena for that behavior, now they have to find a new arena. Like someone in the current generation with the same personality traits might be anti-catholic yet use it in the exact same way. It's a pattern of behavoir, not necessarily any one banner.

The comparison to the church argument is used a lot to shut down “preachy” trans/neurodivergent/disability/race arguments that asking for equality or respect is some sort of “thought police” activity.

I actually don’t understand the point you’re trying to make at all here. Are you trying to say that arguments relating to these topics are being made in bad faith purely to satisfy needs related to personal social standing? Or that there is a subset of people doing this for the wrong reasons? Or that it’s all hopeless because society can’t get past this “holier than thou” attitude?

 

[ann post]

I actually don’t understand the point you’re trying to make at all here. Are you trying to say that arguments relating to these topics are being made in bad faith purely to satisfy needs related to personal social standing? Or that there is a subset of people doing this for the wrong reasons? Or that it’s all hopeless because society can’t get past this “holier than thou” attitude?

Well i read bits of the tavistock thing and there were a few parts where they were saying the thing couldn't function properly because of the social climate around it and the high staff turnover and the role social media played and it reminded me of what UTM said. That was my point. Everything after was my trying to explain that i dont think 8 year old trans people are pope benedicts advisor, but i do think the masses are still the masses.

To chat with your questions though:
I am 100% convinced there is a subset of people who do it for the wrong reasons - and that is true of anything that gains big online traction - people want to be the next squirrel to fall out of the tree. And yes i think arguments are made in bad faith to elevate social standing - specifically from those outside the trans community in this case - even by alllies. To be polar about it, people are either doing it because they want full spectrum human rights, or regular hits of like button dopamine hits - but if we are to be honest with ourselves, its a bit of both.

My approach in this case was to look at RM's little online sentences and see if they checked out - and from reading what i can find in the field - the reality is her statement* is % true, % false or if the internet prefers, % terf % not terf - but the social media reaction is dealing with it largely in the usual polar manner - like if the word terf is present then logic or qualification is not required - the conversation isn't about devining the best set of outcomes for a minority, it's more about people drawing a line in the sand because somebody said something and we need to tell the internet they are terf. lots of 'oh well i cant order her new album now after all' and whatnot - that just fuels more and more polarisation.

And in to be fair and honest - from my few days reading, it is not nice to deal with but there have been elements of trans campaigning that do in fact shut down conversation, that do in fact obscure information and gloss over very important things. That will only serve to arm people who deny them their rights in the long term so either we sit about repeating catchphrases/buzz words to each other like, i dunno, people at mass or something, or we acknowledge that and move forward.



*it's really difficult to use that word against men if you are sticking to the meaning.
*puberty blockers as dealt with in the uk were a bit fucked.
*bone density concerns are not resolved at this point and seem to be an effect of the age at which the drug is useful to trans kids
*big pharma has refused to further research puberty blockers in the trans arena
*big pharma does in fact only operate on a profit basis
*the more advanced dutch model for little mixed up kids would have been a better path

 

[Deadmanposting]

I was referring to the idea that the use of these medicines was somehow riskier or out of keeping with medical practice.

It was
That's why they shut it all down

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

It was
That's why they shut it all down

Firstly, no, it wasn’t. They shut it down because of mismanagement and poor clinical practice - they box ticked and didn’t do due diligence in working with patients and didn’t take into account complexities in their clients’ medical histories which need to be addressed during transition. The Cass report *also* gives a recommendation that there is insufficient long-term data to wholesale prescribe puberty blockers to clients but that is not the reason it was shut down.

It’s worth noting that the UK is incredibly conservative when it comes to the use of these drugs and everything needs to be viewed through that lens. Because they have not provided them at any level really beyond Tavistock, the NHS put all their eggs in one basket so when the basket turned out to be rotten they realised they have no good data to show for it. Imagine the difference if this was taken on by Great Ormond St or another major clinical centre?

Finally, in terms of actual data on PubMed, the research is generally coming back showing that not only are puberty blockers safe but they have good clinical outcomes for those taking them. The problem is that no one took research on trans kids seriously so despite over 30 years of using these drugs, there have been no supports or resources made available to do a long-term study when there are clearly going to be adults who have gone through treatment as a child in the 90s and have gone on to live their lives.

This isn’t just a failing of big pharma* not putting money into Phase 4 research but of funding bodies, universities and medical establishment. Now this failing is being weaponised against the trans community.

*and @ann post is right when he says that big pharma don’t go forward with a drug unless they can make money from it. They also don’t put much money into research after a drug is licenced because the fear is that new research may identify issues causing a drug to be withdrawn. It is also why most drugs say don’t use if you’re pregnant or breastfeeding - these are expensive studies to run and pregnant people do not tend to volunteer to use experimental drugs.

 

[Kermit McDermott]

The start of a new term. Enoch is back, raring to go

Enoch Burke back for new term at school he was sacked from, as fines pass €148,000

Former teacher Enoch Burke has returned to the school that sacked him in what is seen as a pledge to continue his protest at his dismissal.

www.independent.ie

 

[pete]

The start of a new term. Enoch is back, raring to go

Enoch Burke back for new term at school he was sacked from, as fines pass €148,000

Former teacher Enoch Burke has returned to the school that sacked him in what is seen as a pledge to continue his protest at his dismissal.

www.independent.ie

Commit to the bit, as they say.

 

[Unicron]

Commit to the bit, as they say.

The child in question will probably have sat their leaving cert and head off to college but this gobshite will still be turning up.

 

[ann post]

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[Deadmanposting]

Firstly, no, it wasn’t. They shut it down because of mismanagement and poor clinical practice - they box ticked and didn’t do due diligence in working with patients and didn’t take into account complexities in their clients’ medical histories which need to be addressed during transition.

Not what happened.
It's not box-ticking when you affirm the same care for everyone no matter what their circumstances.
It's not that they didn't take complexities into account - they refused to do so, and campaigned against good-faith practitioners who did so, by accusing them of transphobia.
It was not benign and lazy, it was actively pursuing an ideology.
That's what gets you shut down and the drugs taken away.

It’s worth noting that the UK is incredibly conservative when it comes to the use of these drugs and everything needs to be viewed through that lens. Because they have not provided them at any level really beyond Tavistock, the NHS put all their eggs in one basket so when the basket turned out to be rotten they realised they have no good data to show for it. Imagine the difference if this was taken on by Great Ormond St or another major clinical centre?

Conservatism is not the lens to view everything through. It is a massive failure of care by those acting through an ideology and failing their patients, and attempting to wreck the careers of their colleagues who tried to do the right thing. The ideologues made the basket rotten - and anyone who said so got threatened with being called a bigot.

Finally, in terms of actual data on PubMed, the research is generally coming back showing that not only are puberty blockers safe but they have good clinical outcomes for those taking them. The problem is that no one took research on trans kids seriously so despite over 30 years of using these drugs, there have been no supports or resources made available to do a long-term study when there are clearly going to be adults who have gone through treatment as a child in the 90s and have gone on to live their lives.

The problem was not that no one took research seriously. The problem was they prescribed the drugs to any child with any kind of expressed dysphoria.
The problem - again - was the idealogues forcing through a treatment for vulnerable kids that was wholly inappropriate.
It doesn't matter if the drugs are safe - it matters what kids you are giving them to.
And if you should be changing a childs life for no appropriate clinical reason. Arguing whether the dugs are safe or not is missing the point.
And -again - bullying the fuck out of anyone that said otherwise.
That's the problem.
Wrecking kids lives, wrecking colleagues lives.
No box-ticking, not "didn't follow up".


No one here is weaponising anything against the trans community.
That's an argument against some imagined nazis on some other forum somewhere.
There's no nazis here. Just people talking in good faith on a contentious subject.

Everyone on this forum wants what's best for all trans kids and every other kid with complex problems.
We all want a world where everyone gets to be their true selves and live authentically.
But to even discuss these subjects is to have the Terf Hammer come out.

The larger problem is when only one group of interests has the loudest voice in the room and the ability to silence others, it makes it next to impossible to find consensus on what's best for everyone.

 

[Kermit McDermott]

Alice Cooper dropped by cosmetics company after calling being transgender "a fad"

A cosmetics company has cancelled its collaboration with Alice Cooper after he described being transgender as "a fad".

www.nme.com