US Election 2016 (3 Viewers)

[David Kronenbourg]

Virginia shooting: House majority whip shot at congressional baseball practice – live

 

[hydromancer]

Looks like political assassination to me.

 

[therealjohnny]

Would that be a fore-gone conclusion? Is that a fairway of putting it?

 

[hydromancer]

It wouldn't happen on Hydros watch thats for sure

 

[pete]

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[therealjohnny]

:|

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[rettucs]

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[chris d]

This was gross too. It's like raw sausage.

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[David Kronenbourg]

Trump is some craic all the same

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[nooleen]

Trump followers troll Declaration of Independence tweets believing they were propaganda

 

[hydromancer]

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[Lili Marlene]

I wish this story would just fuck off. Wow Russia fucked with the US just for the LOLS, like the US has never organized the murder of entire governments. HILLARY LOST BECAUSE EVERYONE HATED HER

 

[therealjohnny]

I blame the pant suit

 

[hydromancer]

You get the president you deserve (or even elect) is what I always say
Pence Calls for Return to the Moon, Boots on Mars

 

[MilanPan!c]

I wish this story would just fuck off. Wow Russia fucked with the US just for the LOLS, like the US has never organized the murder of entire governments. HILLARY LOST BECAUSE EVERYONE HATED HER

IMO combining all of this is easy, but maybe not the right approach.

- People hate Hillary, but that doesn't mean Russia should interfere in other people's elections.
- The US is hypocritical when moaning about election interference, but does that mean we should ignore all election interference?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be against ALL election interference, despite your feeling on Trump, or your feeling about Clinton. I also think it's reasonable to HATE Clinton and not support Russia, or Trump.

Conflating all these bits together leads to confusing correlations which may not be helpful/meaningful.

IMO.

 

[Lili Marlene]

IMO combining all of this is easy, but maybe not the right approach.

- People hate Hillary, but that doesn't mean Russia should interfere in other people's elections.
- The US is hypocritical when moaning about election interference, but does that mean we should ignore all election interference?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be against ALL election interference, despite your feeling on Trump, or your feeling about Clinton. I also think it's reasonable to HATE Clinton and not support Russia, or Trump.

Conflating all these bits together leads to confusing correlations which may not be helpful/meaningful.

IMO.

Yes that's all true. I mean I wouldn't want to conflate Russia's kind of lame self deluded arrogance at it's own importance with the US's straight up evil last 40 odd years of foreign policy. They are two separate issues that need to be addressed accordingly.

My understanding of the situation is that the NYTimes kind of writers are using this plot as a reason to not look at why a half-dead celebrity shell of a man was able to beat their candidate; they're just happy blame the Russians.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Yes that's all true. I mean I wouldn't want to conflate Russia's kind of lame self deluded arrogance at it's own importance with the US's straight up evil last 40 odd years of foreign policy. They are two separate issues that need to be addressed accordingly.

My understanding of the situation is that the NYTimes kind of writers are using this plot as a reason to not look at why a half-dead celebrity shell of a man was able to beat their candidate; they're just happy blame the Russians.

Well, what I'd say to that is this:

The US has - for much more than 40 years btw. - been a force of pretty unmitigated awfulness, and the majority of population is willfully ignorant of most of this. That wilful ignorance, like so many of America's intractable issues, would take generations to fix, if people could even accept it needed to be fixed. As it stands not only are these issues not being addresses, but in many cases they're being made deliberately worse.

IMO, and this is truly just that - IMO - the US is headed only one way, and it's a not if, but when thing.

Now, separate that out from Russia and Trump.

Russia, according to everyone, but Putin/the Kremlin, and Donald Trump, meddled in the US election. The extent is pretty staggering, and includes things like hacking into election related systems in dozens of states. On top of that, the Russians - and again this is from multiple governments - were doing this at the behest of Putin, to help Trump.

Why?

Well, the ex-head of the FBI thinks it's because Putin hates Hillary, for a wide variety of reasons.

Others have different ideas about why.

In the last few days we have learned that the US intelligence agencies heard a lot of chatter about Russians and Trump, all the way back in 2015. AND the US was warned at the same time that the Russian would try and funnel money into the US Presidential campaign.

As for Trump et al.

Various members of the Trump inner circle have been caught out, repeatedly, lying about meeting Russians. I don't know why.

That goes from the fired for lying Michael Flynn, who is probably going to go to jail for other things he did, to the attorney general Jeff Sessions, to Trump's son and son-in-law.

All of them, and others like ex-campaign head Paul Manafort, lied about meeting Russians. Again, I don't know why.

The most recent shitstorm happened after the NYTimes reported that Don Jr met with a Russian lawyer.

Jr then released a statement, which even Fox News has called an attempt at a White House cover-up, which said he had met with this lawyer, along with the son-in-law and campaign manager, to discuss adoption.

There are currently US sanctions on various Russians, for human rights violations and one of the results of that is that Americans can no longer adopt Russian children.

In effect the statement said, that they discuss these sanctions, briefly, that Jr. didn't know the woman's name, and that while the campaign chair and candidate's most trust advisor were there, neither knew what the meeting was about, or who they were meeting.

The NYTimes THEN reported that the reason Jr took the meeting was that he was in fact promised dirt on Clinton, from the Russian lawyer.

Jr then said he'd done nothing wrong, because the lawyer had not in fact given him any dirt on clinton... so it was a botched attempt at collusion.

THEN the NYTimes called Jr and said they were about to publish these emails, would he like to comment. Instead of commenting Jr posted the emails on Twitter.

What the emails said is damning, unless you happen to be a Trump supporter, but even then several prominent Republicans like Charles Krauthammer on Fox has said they prove collusion.

So, what do they say?

They say that a Russian lawyer, as part of the Russian government's attempt to help Trump win, wants to share damaging information about Clinton.

Jr reacted very happily about this, and then forwarded the emails to the son in law and campaign manager.

Adoption was never mentioned in the lead up to the meeting.

So, a LOT of lies, and a LOT of direct evidence that Jr, the campaign manager and the son in law were all willing to work with the Russian government to beat Clinton.

What it all means, we don't know, and that's just a small taste of the situation. We all hope the FBI investigation clears it all up, and if Americans were helping undermine US democracy I personally hope they are punished.

I also hope Americans that undermine other country's sovereignty are punished. At this moment I'd guess both are about as likely.

So... is it all fake news? No, but it could just be a bunch of assholes being assholes. Should the US law enforcement try and figure it out? IMO, yes.

But I understand why people are tired of it.

And of course the media - for decent and less decent reasons - hates and attacks Trump. And of course both sides are playing politics with the situation.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Well, what I'd say to that is this:

The US has - for much more than 40 years btw. - been a force of pretty unmitigated awfulness, and the majority of population is willfully ignorant of most of this. That wilful ignorance, like so many of America's intractable issues, would take generations to fix, if people could even accept it needed to be fixed. As it stands not only are these issues not being addresses, but in many cases they're being made deliberately worse.

IMO, and this is truly just that - IMO - the US is headed only one way, and it's a not if, but when thing.

Ok then

Now, separate that out from Russia and Trump.

Russia, according to everyone, but Putin/the Kremlin, and Donald Trump, meddled in the US election. The extent is pretty staggering, and includes things like hacking into election related systems in dozens of states. On top of that, the Russians - and again this is from multiple governments - were doing this at the behest of Putin, to help Trump.

Why?

Well, the ex-head of the FBI thinks it's because Putin hates Hillary, for a wide variety of reasons.

Others have different ideas about why.

In the last few days we have learned that the US intelligence agencies heard a lot of chatter about Russians and Trump, all the way back in 2015. AND the US was warned at the same time that the Russian would try and funnel money into the US Presidential campaign.

As for Trump et al.

Various members of the Trump inner circle have been caught out, repeatedly, lying about meeting Russians. I don't know why.

That goes from the fired for lying Michael Flynn, who is probably going to go to jail for other things he did, to the attorney general Jeff Sessions, to Trump's son and son-in-law.

All of them, and others like ex-campaign head Paul Manafort, lied about meeting Russians. Again, I don't know why.

The most recent shitstorm happened after the NYTimes reported that Don Jr met with a Russian lawyer.

Jr then released a statement, which even Fox News has called an attempt at a White House cover-up, which said he had met with this lawyer, along with the son-in-law and campaign manager, to discuss adoption.

There are currently US sanctions on various Russians, for human rights violations and one of the results of that is that Americans can no longer adopt Russian children.

In effect the statement said, that they discuss these sanctions, briefly, that Jr. didn't know the woman's name, and that while the campaign chair and candidate's most trust advisor were there, neither knew what the meeting was about, or who they were meeting.

The NYTimes THEN reported that the reason Jr took the meeting was that he was in fact promised dirt on Clinton, from the Russian lawyer.

Jr then said he'd done nothing wrong, because the lawyer had not in fact given him any dirt on clinton... so it was a botched attempt at collusion.

THEN the NYTimes called Jr and said they were about to publish these emails, would he like to comment. Instead of commenting Jr posted the emails on Twitter.

What the emails said is damning, unless you happen to be a Trump supporter, but even then several prominent Republicans like Charles Krauthammer on Fox has said they prove collusion.

So, what do they say?

They say that a Russian lawyer, as part of the Russian government's attempt to help Trump win, wants to share damaging information about Clinton.

Jr reacted very happily about this, and then forwarded the emails to the son in law and campaign manager.

Adoption was never mentioned in the lead up to the meeting.

So, a LOT of lies, and a LOT of direct evidence that Jr, the campaign manager and the son in law were all willing to work with the Russian government to beat Clinton.

What it all means, we don't know, and that's just a small taste of the situation. We all hope the FBI investigation clears it all up, and if Americans were helping undermine US democracy I personally hope they are punished.

I also hope Americans that undermine other country's sovereignty are punished. At this moment I'd guess both are about as likely.

So... is it all fake news? No, but it could just be a bunch of assholes being assholes. Should the US law enforcement try and figure it out? IMO, yes.

But I understand why people are tired of it.

And of course the media - for decent and less decent reasons - hates and attacks Trump. And of course both sides are playing politics with the situation.

This is all very detailed but ohmygod I don't need an FBI investigation to convince me that Donald Trump is a shambles of a businessman with all sorts of dodgy links or that the Russian government would actively mess with US politics if given the opportunity. My truthful response is that I'd take all of that as a given. Maybe if the US military pulled its presence out of the entire world I'll feel sorry for their poor election. Maybe other countries will feel less inclined to want to tamper with US elections if the US would just back off themselves. So i'm sorry but I find it very hard to say there's no link between this ridiculous situation and X number of years of US foreign policy.

Besides which, even if this convoluted investigation manages to get Donald impeached then so what? He doesn't do anything as it is; he'd sign full communism into law if they called it The Trump Plan. Do you think that a bunch of MAGA heads give a fuck what links Donald Trump has or doesn't have? Do you think they'll change their mind? They didn't vote him in because of his squeaky clean record or because he seemed like he loved following the rules.

 

[ann post]

I agree with @Lili Marlene though i do think there is a value in the legal process for like, down the line, if this mess rectifies the cold light of retrospect will have some documents to follow.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Ok then



This is all very detailed but ohmygod I don't need an FBI investigation to convince me that Donald Trump is a shambles of a businessman with all sorts of dodgy links or that the Russian government would actively mess with US politics if given the opportunity. My truthful response is that I'd take all of that as a given. Maybe if the US military pulled its presence out of the entire world I'll feel sorry for their poor election. Maybe other countries will feel less inclined to want to tamper with US elections if the US would just back off themselves. So i'm sorry but I find it very hard to say there's no link between this ridiculous situation and X number of years of US foreign policy.

Besides which, even if this convoluted investigation manages to get Donald impeached then so what? He doesn't do anything as it is; he'd sign full communism into law if they called it The Trump Plan. Do you think that a bunch of MAGA heads give a fuck what links Donald Trump has or doesn't have? Do you think they'll change their mind? They didn't vote him in because of his squeaky clean record or because he seemed like he loved following the rules.

Here's the problems with that:

- Thinking someone is so awful that there's no point in investigating them is basically a license to be awful. Wouldn't it be better to engage in behaviour that had a chance - however ephemeral - of producing better outcomes than Trump?

- Again conflating Trump/Russia and US foreign policy since WW1? To what end? I mean, will ignoring Trump Co.'s behaviour meaningfully improve US foreign policy? If not, why are you using one to justify ignoring (or however you want to define your attitude) the other? Why not dislike both? What exact link is there btw.? Because once you go down the road of "country x deserves what they get" you open the door to some really atrocious behaviour; behaviour you seem to dislike when America does it.

- MAGA heads are a minority in America. Without the support of traditional Republicans, and Independents, the MAGA heads have no real power. So the goal there wouldn't be to change the unchangeable, but to influence those that aren't natural Trump allies.

I guess in summary I'd say, we need higher standards, not lower. The first step IMO is for the average Joe to be less cynical, and more educated. It's VERY easy to hate America and its foreign policy, but if you do that in such a way as it ignores or justifies other bad behaviour, what's the outcome? I'd argue its likely not better behavior.