Sexism, god help us (1 Viewer)

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

And, as I have been told so many times "silence means yes" apparently - it's even been declared "consent" by some rich white assholes that preside over courts. So, by keeping quiet they are mutely approving - or at least that is what every privileged white boy in the world sees. "See, even his mother thinks she was the one that was wrong"

Why bring race into it?

 

[rettucs]

Why bring race into it?

seriously?

you think his being white has nothing to do with his being exonerated (yes, 'exonerated').

I can only imagine the hammering he would have gotten if he wasn't white, and/or he didn't have a rich daddy.

I'm very familar with that part of america (and that university in particular). It would turn your stomach (well, mine anyway).

 

[Lili Marlene]

Northside Festival Drops Band After Drummer Supports Stanford Rapist | Pitchfork

ehhh... not sure what to make of this one.

 

[rettucs]

Northside Festival Drops Band After Drummer Supports Stanford Rapist | Pitchfork

ehhh... not sure what to make of this one.

proper order IMO

 

[Lili Marlene]

proper order IMO

They were asked for a character witness, they supplied it. Among some sensible things they also said something quite naive (this person is 20 btw) and NOW THEY MUST SUFFER.

Proper order?

I dunno man.

 

[Squiggle]

Right, but you clearly said

Again, I don't see that anyone is doing that. Would you have the family of every guilty person appear in court or on TV to disown and denounce them?

No, but I think they should be expressing some sympathy for the girl involved and her family. I don't think they should be arguing for a very lenient sentence to be overturned. I think they should be saying "My son did something very bad, he's not a bad kid but what he did is something that will forever affect the life of that girl and his own"...

As to the why bring race into it. As Scutter said, are you serious? You'd have to be deaf and blind not to know that if he was a poor white kid or all but the very richest of non-white kids the outcome would have been very different.

 

[ann post]

I'm kinda getting bored of the think pieces on this. Like in general that statement should probably be read out in schools when consent is discussed with teens, but all the hypothesis and extrapolations that arent the actual statement are just fogging the source.

 

[Squiggle]

I'm kinda getting bored of the think pieces on this. Like in general that statement should probably be read out in schools when consent is discussed with teens, but all the hypothesis and extrapolations that arent the actual statement are just fogging the source.

I haven't read any of them. The young woman said it very well. You're right though. That statement should be required reading.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

seriously?

you think his being white has nothing to do with his being exonerated (yes, 'exonerated').

I can only imagine the hammering he would have gotten if he wasn't white, and/or he didn't have a rich daddy.

I'm very serious.

But he wasn't exonerated, he was found guilty and given a sentence that the judge found fitting.

As for race the article I linked above refers to a case where a hispanic 'nobody' was given a sentence that was less than half of the statutory minimum sentence, this with a similar hubbub of outrage. The idea that being white is a ticket to freedom while not being white is a ticket to prison isn't always true.

...what every privileged white boy in the world sees...

How do you know what 'every privileged white boy in the world' sees or doesn't see? You're projecting the behaviour of some members of a group onto all members of that group, that's deeply unfair.

I don't think they should be arguing for a very lenient sentence to be overturned.

They're not, the fathers submission to the court was made pre-sentencing.
You started from the position that he is being held blameless by his family, again, I don't see that.

 

[Squiggle]

They're not, the fathers submission to the court was made pre-sentencing.
You started from the position that he is being held blameless by his family, again, I don't see that.

They ARE. I'm not talking about the father's submission His lawyers are mounting an appeal to have the sentence overturned.

And we have had enough cases in this country of young men who got away quite literally with murder (kicking someone to death is murder in my book), assault, rape, attempted murder and all kinds of other crimes without a country like the United States rubberstamping the poor "judgement" of our judiciary by allowing this kind of injustice.

 

[rettucs]

But he wasn't exonerated, he was found guilty and given a sentence that the judge found fitting.

he will lead a very fine, priveleged, life.

contrast that with his victim.

he was exonerated.

 

[ann post]

I haven't read any of them. The young woman said it very well. You're right though. That statement should be required reading.

I'm not saying they are wrong, i think i'm just annoyed that every publication has to have their 2 cents to grab some internet points.

 

[Squiggle]

How do you know what 'every privileged white boy in the world' sees or doesn't see? You're projecting the behaviour of some members of a group onto all members of that group, that's deeply unfair.

Because I'm a woman and I've had to listen to plenty of them tell me what is ok for them because nobody would believe me anyway and I'd just look like I was being a bitch, or similar.

Because I have had to resort to violence myself to fight off the unwanted advances of a work colleague, which were taking place in front of other work colleagues, because said colleagues found it unimaginable that I really meant "NO! GET OFF ME!".

Because almost every woman I know has had enough of these encounters to fill a book (some a very large one and some might have to be several volumes long).

And the message that the attacker should receive minimal punishment while the victim suffers for the rest of her life does nothing to make being a woman or girl easier or safer.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

he will lead a very fine, priveleged, life.

contrast that with his victim.

he was exonerated.

You don't know that.

Maybe his victim will learn to live with what happened, indeed I would hope she is strong enough to do so and can avail of the services that will allow her to do so.

Again, he wasn't, he was found guilty and given what was considered to be a fitting sentence. His name is all over the internet in connection with this case, he's not going to be escaping it any time soon.

Because I'm a woman and I've had to listen to plenty of them tell me what is ok for them because nobody would believe me anyway and I'd just look like I was being a bitch, or similar.

Because I have had to resort to violence myself to fight off the unwanted advances of a work colleague, which were taking place in front of other work colleagues, because said colleagues found it unimaginable that I really meant "NO! GET OFF ME!".

Because almost every woman I know has had enough of these encounters to fill a book (some a very large one and some might have to be several volumes long).

And the message that the attacker should receive minimal punishment while the victim suffers for the rest of her life does nothing to make being a woman or girl easier or safer.

But again, you're projecting the behaviour of some people onto all members of that group, it's unfair.
And what defines 'privileged' exactly? Am I to be considered privileged? I live a comfortable life, I'm white, do you believe that I am of the opinion that because his mother said nothing it's the victims fault? That's where this sort of stuff gets you, its not at all helpful.
Why does she have to suffer the rest of her life? As above, I would hope that she can, with help, come to terms with what happened and ultimately lead a happy productive life. You seem to be suggesting that her only option is to curl up in a ball and spend the rest of her days suffering the consequences of this guys actions. Fuck that.

 

[Squiggle]

I've also heard otherwise "sound" guys, ones who would be up in arms if it was their sister, or a female friend, say things like "well, she must have led him on" or "he must have thought she said yes" or "she shouldn't have had so much to drink". They never say "He should not have raped her".

Rapists are cause of rape, nothing else.

If a guy isn't sure that a woman has consented, or is able to consent, or she changes her mind or is giving mixed signals then he should walk away and leave her alone. Too many don't even take No for an answer.

 

[Lili Marlene]

But again, you're projecting the behaviour of some people onto all members of that group, it's unfair.

And what defines 'privileged' exactly? Am I to be considered privileged? I live a comfortable life, I'm white, do you believe that I am of the opinion that because his mother said nothing it's the victims fault? That's where this sort of stuff gets you, its not at all helpful.

We're all privileged in some way dude, some more than others. It's not a personal thing, and it's not about feeling bad about it, it's just about understanding other people's situation and looking at what you take for granted.

I agree that too often it's internet short-hand for closing down a conversation rather than opening one up but, at the same time, how many examples of something are needed before you can go "ok, this is not my experience but clearly it's a real thing for others so maybe I should take their word for it?"

 

[Squiggle]

Why does she have to suffer the rest of her life? As above, I would hope that she can, with help, come to terms with what happened and ultimately lead a happy productive life. You seem to be suggesting that her only option is to curl up in a ball and spend the rest of her days suffering the consequences of this guys actions. Fuck that.

Have you ever been a victim of violent crime?
I sincerely hope you haven't been a victim of sexual assualt or rape.

Women who have find that it not only changes them, but that it changes how many people treat them, and NOT in a good way. Clearly she is strong and she is fighting back with her statement, but she will not be the same person she was, that person is effectively dead.

There is no point, I think, in trying to explain it further than that to you as you obviously either don't, or don't want to, get it, or maybe are just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Squiggle]

I think this is great, especially the last paragraph. It's by a guy called Matt Lang:

"I've been drunk many times, even in the presence of promiscuous women who were also drunk, and I managed not to rape them, so I don't think drinking and promiscuity are the problems.

This here is the problem: some guys are entitled pricks, and they're entitled pricks because their fathers and coaches and friends taught them to be entitled pricks. Because they are entitled pricks, they think they can have whatever they want, and that their worth is defined by what they have and what they take.

Alcohol has this capacity to unlock what, deep down, we've always wanted to do. For me, that means, occasionally, running naked in places I probably shouldn't, like through libraries or deserts (remember for next time: deserts=cactuses). But even at my most intoxicated, I've never lost sight of the fact that rape is wrong, because I was raised to know it's wrong. No amount of alcohol can depress that value.

Brock Turner and his ilk were never taught that. They were taught that they can have what they want, when they want, including women. And that's called being a man. Brock Turner thought he was entitled to a little "action" any way he could get it, and he thought that long before he got drunk. The alcohol didn't introduce that thought, it unlocked it. That thought: "I can take whatever I want, including her", was planted and watered by a whole, rotten village.

It is right that we shame him, and his father, and the friend that came to his defense, and the judge, and every other entitled prick we meet.

Just as importantly, we need to love our boys, and teach them the dignity of the body, and how to live through disappointment and confusion, and how to navigate confusing feelings, and how to separate feelings from action, and how to communicate and listen. We need to redefine for them what it is to be a man, that their worth doesn't come from that which they have and take."

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

We're all privileged in some way dude, some more than others. It's not a personal thing, and it's not about feeling bad about it, it's just about understanding other people's situation and looking at what you take for granted.

I agree that too often it's internet short-hand for closing down a conversation rather than opening one up but, at the same time, how many examples of something are needed before you can go "ok, this is not my experience but clearly it's a real thing for others so maybe I should take their word for it?"

I appreciate that, my quibble here is that the behaviour of some members of a group is being applied to all members of that group.

Have you ever been a victim of violent crime?
I sincerely hope you haven't been a victim of sexual assualt or rape.

Women who have find that it not only changes them, but that it changes how many people treat them, and NOT in a good way. Clearly she is strong and she is fighting back with her statement, but she will not be the same person she was, that person is effectively dead.

There is no point, I think, in trying to explain it further than that to you as you obviously either don't, or don't want to, get it, or maybe are just arguing for the sake of it.

Yes, I've been assaulted more than once, one episode left me with a minor condition whereby every time a loud car/bus/whatever passed in close proximity to me I instinctively flinched, thankfully that has, for the most part, passed.
Edit: On sexual assault more broadly, some find that it affects their whole lives while others look to put it behind them and get on with their life, that's what I'm hoping for for this lady.
I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm arguing from the point that nothing is black and white, every situation has nuance.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I appreciate that, my quibble here is that the behaviour of some members of a group is being applied to all members of that group.

Well I dunno, "privileged white boys" is fairly broad reaching. You're quibbling over the specific semantics of a vague generalization?