Hello (3 Viewers)

[ailbhe]

you an oly dont have to have the same humor. if you dont get the joke thats your business. dosent make him a sexist.

Ailbhe making such comments just wouldn’t hold the same weight, because she, as a woman does not have the same power as men in a society based on gender inequality and male advantage.

....thats your sad point of view. i dont think thats true, i dont veiw the world like that.you seem to be the one with the negative perception of the other gender, i dont feel threatened by men. this is a problem that you obiously need help with if you feel all men are a threat to you then you are a sexist. thats how these comments hhave come off to me. it is mad insulting to men to think of all of them as some kind of threat. it horrible and sad. you must live in a scary world. i dont neither does oly. this is even though i have had one sexual assult on my person. still i dont feel threatened by men... that would be sexist to feel that way.

okay so there is a chance you will be raped by a dude in your life.... maybe, nether myself or my sisters or most of my friends have been raped. i have been attacked by girls physically as in i have gotten hit and ciggarttes put out on me. oly has been beaten up loadsa times as have most men, which furthers my point that people are dickheads rather than being sexist.
calling oly a sexist because he doesnt agree with you is just plain old nuts.

Ailbhe- I don't expect all women to see the world the way I do and if they don't, that's their business. If they do, I don't expect them to engage in discussions about it or do anything about it, that's their business. I purposely said apathy or silence, so as not to imply that everyone was apathetic. I never presume that people haven’t thought about this or are ignorant of it. You’re entitled to your views and maybe you’ve had bad experiences at the hands of feminists, but attacking me based on presumptions about my opinions of non-feminist women isn’t fair.

again its not fair to call people apathetic or silent just cause they dont agree with you and choose not to get involed in the argument. your trying to shrug off what im saying by sudgesting that i have had bad experience with femanists rather then i understand and disagree with what they are saying.

 

[reformer]

corm, you're a plank

spuded, you're also a plank

i admit i'm not exactly putting in much effort

but then the point you were making was pretty weak, ma fren

christ s,yr a smart one,why bother putting any effort in?either have the argument or dont.
and im glad that some people realise making jokes does not make you a sexist bastard or whatever,its actions that decide such things not silly posts on an internet site.group hug.

 

[the strange guy]

Why didn’t you make the joke about the groom?

Because I'm not gay.
If I was and I made that joke, no one would have said a thing.

As an aside, a discussion of the views of sexually active homosexuals on other sexually active homosexuals would be interesting.
Because they view other men as sexual objects, do we need to change their minds?
Or should we leave them alone?
Are they incapable of loving and respecting other men?

Dunchee was in Knifed which had the most sexually explicit lyrics of any other Irish band at the time.
But it dealt with gay sex so it couldn't be deemed as objectifying people lest someone would be considered homophobic.

When men are perpetually judged primarily on their fuckability, then your joke might be funny.

Of course men are judged on their 'fuckability'!
Men go to the gym to look buff.
Men go to hairdressers to look sharp or they dread their hair to look cool.
Men wear tight shirts to show off their pecs.
Men want to seem attractive to others.
Male and female animals, including humans, preen themselves to look attractive - they are all judged on their 'fuckability'.
You disagree with this?
I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make.

When it’s no longer common for men to force their women partners to have sex with their friends as a form of sexual abuse your joke might be funny

Seriously, forcing your partner to have sex with your friends is not common.
That's a very unfair and wrong comparison to make.

Right now your joke is just sexist. I’m a woman, and it’s offensive to me.

What about the women and men who did not find the joke offensive?

I don’t tend to find other women sexually threatening, what with the chances of me being sexually assaulted by a woman probably less than being struck by lightening, but a fair fucking chance I’ll be raped by a dude in my life.

This is another completely unfair comparison to make.
How can you compare my joke to the odds of you getting raped?
If you find men sexually threatening then understand that this is your own prejudice that you must deal with and not a template by which people should live their lives.
I'm sorry you feel threatened by men but I don't think I should 'watch what I say on the internet' because someone might feel this way.

If you read over one of the old threads, you’ll remember that there is no argument that men are victims, but it is men who commit violence on men...

Women aren't physically capable of raping men.
Women are usually incapable of having a fair fist fight with a man.
A good few of us on this board are friends with a certain lady who has no problem D-locking anyone who fucks with her.
Women can be just as cruel, vindictive, hurtful and as evil as men towards other men and women.
People can be dickheads.

If you’re so tired of bringing up old arguments, then why are you bringing up all that what about the men stuff?

I brought up the 'men stuff' because I am arguing for gender equality.

I'm done with this thread, I'll start up a new one in a minute that will hopefully address the subject and can be debated in short bursts rather than poring over pages and pages of arguments.

edit: New Thread!!

 

[Janer]

Thirdly, "All of this will descend into wordy, intellectual shite that only two or three people will be interested in, everyone else who you hope to get through to will feel alienated or just find the whole debate boring

Indeed this is true from my POV.
Why do arguments on this shit get so heavy do people come in with massive words....I mean do these people speak like that in real life?? No they fucking don't, it's just a way to say ones cock is bigger than yo cocks.

FS.

 

[taubstumm]

christ s,yr a smart one,why bother putting any effort in?either have the argument or dont.

ok.

specifically relating to your post about the nuclear family:

humans, as a species, adapted to an evolutionary environment which favoured communal living in an extended family (and, to a large extent, with groups of families living in semi-rural communities). the idea of the nuclear family as the 'proper' way for humans to organise their life is something which, for most societies, is less than two centuries old. this coincides with the industrial revolution and the rise of wage capitalism, and was not the dominant mode of human existence for most of the last few millennia.

(on a side note, relating it to other animal species is pointless, and tells us nothing.)

however, this is all an aside from the main points of the thread (which is why i didn't post it first time around), and i don't thing there's much to be gained by going off on endless tangents, so i'll leave it at that, because other more interesting points could be considered instead, such as why, for example, male posters on threads about the subject of sexism always feel the need to dominate discussion and belittle the experience of other (normally female) posters, when they they could be taking the opportunity to shut the fuck up for a change - why does that happen over and over again?

 

[Buzzo]

how exactly is it a weak point? Buzzo was saying in the context of ireland that there is a slim chance of men being sexual assaulted which evidently is not true if you actually have had any first hand knowledge of things such as the redress board.

Just to repeat from a previous thread:

SAVI[/URL] (Sexual Violence in Ireland) report. It's quite startling. Men perpetrate violence against women and children. Women also do, but rarely. Predominantly it is men abusing women.

In Ireland, one woman in 11 has experienced severe physical abuse in a relationship, and one in 12 have experienced severe sexual abuse, whereas one man in 25 has experienced severe physical abuse, and one in 90 has experienced sexual abuse. In Ireland, rape and domestic violence, crimes perpetrated by men on women, aren't even counted in the national crime victimisation surveys, whereas crimes more commonly perpetrated on men are. Rape in marriage was only criminalised in 1990.

In the states, 1 woman in 14 is raped by her husband, 3-4000 women die at the hands of their male spouses, more women are disabled or killed by domestic violence than cancer!

I think it's a bit mad saying because you feel that shit is equal for you that there's no need for feminism. That's kind of like saying there's no need for the dole because you have a job. Shit is not equal. It really isn't.

if you dont get the joke thats your business. dosent make him a sexist.

Actually, it does, and it's not that big a deal. It's not like it's a consistent state of being, it's a way of behaving that we can move in and out of. To reframe- it's not up to me whether jokes I make about people of a different ethnicity to me or disabled people are racist or abelist, regardless of whether I intend them to be. It is up to them if they deem them offensive, and if they tell me so (unless it's completely ridiculous) then I should think about it and quite possibly go 'shit, yeah, I was being racist/abelist...sorry'. Not that big a deal- take it, learn from it and move on.

....thats your sad point of view. i dont think thats true, i dont veiw the world like that.you seem to be the one with the negative perception of the other gender, i dont feel threatened by men. this is a problem that you obiously need help with if you feel all men are a threat to you then you are a sexist. thats how these comments hhave come off to me. it is mad insulting to men to think of all of them as some kind of threat. it horrible and sad. you must live in a scary world. i dont neither does oly. this is even though i have had one sexual assult on my person. still i dont feel threatened by men... that would be sexist to feel that way.

I'm sad, need help, and am a sexist. Thanks for the diagnosis!
For the record, I mostly don't feel threatened by men. If men start making sexist jokes at me then *sometimes* I do, depending on who they are (I've had a bunch of shit experiences at the hands of men too). However, mostly it just pisses me off and I call them on it. If they don't understand or refuse to acknowledge my point of view then I'll explain it, like I'm doing here. It's not sexist of me to perceive sexism- that actually doesn't make any sense!

again its not fair to call people apathetic or silent just cause they dont agree with you and choose not to get involed in the argument. your trying to shrug off what im saying by sudgesting that i have had bad experience with femanists rather then i understand and disagree with what they are saying.

Sorry for the repost:

I don't expect all women to see the world the way I do and if they don't, that's their business [this includes you]. If they do, I don't expect them to engage in discussions about it or do anything about it, that's their business. I purposely said apathy or silence, so as not to imply that everyone was apathetic. I never presume that people haven’t thought about this or are ignorant of it [this includes you]. You’re entitled to your views and maybe you’ve had bad experiences at the hands of feminists, but attacking me based on presumptions about my opinions of non-feminist women isn’t fair [your presumptions suggest to me that you have encountered this elsewhere as I didn't say people who didn't talk hadn't thought about it but you responded as though I did].

Janer- my cock is bigger than your cock.

 

[spuded]

Just to repeat from a previous thread:

then why did you say there was a slim chance of a man being a victim when the reports of institutions such as 1 and 4 prove otherwise, I just find it kinda insulting that you would just write it off a 'slim chance'.

And I know you might say that in adult life the chances are slimmer but what difference does that make to the thousands of men who were victims of childhood sexual abuse who still live with it everyday.

 

[ailbhe]

jesus whatever... put it this way... i dont agree with anything you are saying... olys not a sexist.... it was a joke...if you think it was then thats your veiw not his or mine. most people got the joke an didnt think it was sexist. im not bothered replying anymore. see ya later!

 

[taubstumm]

calling oly a sexist because he doesnt agree with you is just plain old nuts.

oly's not a sexist, he's a gadfly

but others aren't quite as intelligent

the threads he provokes about sexism quite often bring out an ugly streak in a few other people around here

 

[Janer]

Janer- my cock is bigger than your cock.

Maybe so but Dunchee's was super size me.

 

[spuded]

the threads he provokes about sexism quite often bring out an ugly streak in a few other people around here

Your first two posts were calling people planks without any constructive criticism of the points raised. Irony of your own statement lost on you?

 

[Janer]

Ed you are indeed sexy and not just because your a lead vocalist in a band. :heart:

 

[taubstumm]

Your first two posts were calling people planks without any constructive criticism of the points raised. Irony of your own statement lost on you?

whaddeva

 

[Buzzo]

then why did you say there was a slim chance of a man being a victim than a woman when the reports of institutions such as 1 and 4 prove otherwise, I just find it kinda insulting that you would just write it off a 'slim chance'.

I really don't know how I can make myself any clearer Ed. Girls have a high chance, boys have a high chance, women have a high chance, men have a slim chance. Women are victims ALL of their lives, men in childhood. Women and men have the childhood trauma. Women have the adulthood trauma, men don't. This is unfair, and sexist. I'm sure you don't really think, having read my posts here and on other threads, that I dismiss the experiences of men.

Regarding all this- What S said. I've heard dudes getting defensive and trying to rip holes in arguments about this shit a million times, yet the women rarely speak. I DO NOT blame the women for not speaking or not being interested, I'm simply bemoaning the fact that me and Ailbhe are the only women who have posted here (sorry if there's someone else), for whatever reason that may be.

 

[spuded]

I really don't know how I can make myself any clearer Ed. Girls have a high chance, boys have a high chance, women have a high chance, men have a slim chance. Women are victims ALL of their lives, men in childhood. Women and men have the childhood trauma. Women have the adulthood trauma, men don't. This is unfair, and sexist. I'm sure you don't really think, having read my posts here and on other threads, that I dismiss the experiences of men.
.

I agree that the chances are the same in childhood, and I agree there is a slimmer chance for men in adulthood than women. However I disagree that men don't have adulthood trauma from what happened to them in childhood. If we are goin by a medical dictionary explaination, "In psychiatry, "trauma" has assumed a different meaning and refers to an experience that is emotionally painful, distressful, or shocking, which often results in lasting mental and physical effects.", the Trauma/Fallout from childhood sexual abuse of course continues into adulthood for both men and women. Is this not true, do the men reach adulthood and simply forget? A report by the HSE about 4 years ago showed that just over 25% of homeless men had been in the church related institutions and many had been victims of abuse, does this maybe give an indication of perhaps why they ended up homeless? So are saying that in adulthood men do not have trauma from what happened?

 

[JenFast]

i didnt take what oly said seriously therefore didnt find it offensive


this however does not mean i would take lightly someone saying something like this ever. i just know that it wasn't a serious comment,
but yes i do respect that it was taken as offensive so no i am not moaning that ppl did take offense and were pissed off by it, but i just did not take it seriously and therefore wasnt bothered to give an opinion....well except this one

 

[Buzzo]

Sorry, just saw this and want to reply because *gasp* it's on topic!!!

Because they view other men as sexual objects, do we need to change their minds?
Or should we leave them alone?
Are they incapable of loving and respecting other men?

Sure, people objectify each other, but fancying someone and wanting to ride them isn't necessarily objectifying someone. Riding is great, fancying people is great. Gay, straight, whatever. I'm not talking about that shit. I'm talking about the world objectifying women to sell shit and push messages, regardless of whether it is anything to do with sex or women's bodies or not. It makes our bodies into objects ALL THE TIME. You'll find exceptions, I know.... it doesn't change the fact that if you walk into a shop, pretty much every product, (bar the ones that are super masculine such as razors and fucking lawnmowers or whatever... advertising makes dupes of us all in some way), will have part of a woman's body on it. Go look at a magazine shelf. EVERY one of em bar Gay Mens' Health or MUscle Lad has women on the cover. This has the effect of reducing women to bodies and body parts. It's dehumanising. Not only that, but fixation with women's bodies contributes directly to eating disorders. Seriously. Media students can explain the objectification thing better than me.

Of course men are judged on their 'fuckability'!
Men go to the gym to look buff.
Men go to hairdressers to look sharp or they dread their hair to look cool.
Men wear tight shirts to show off their pecs.
Men want to seem attractive to others.
Male and female animals, including humans, preen themselves to look attractive - they are all judged on their 'fuckability'.
You disagree with this?
I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make.

You really must think I'm a bit of a thicko. I know about how mating works like. I fancy lads.. You're taking what I'm saying and presuming that the rest of the world, outside my words, doesn't exist! Everyone fancies each other and tries to make an effort with their appearance. Women though, are pretty much told from a very early age that your appearance is imperative to your success. Your ability to 'bag a man' is dependent on happiness, and you have to be fuckable to bag a man and you'll spend the rest of your life miserable and childless if you don't get one in your thirties. BLAH BLAH EXCEPTIONS BLAH BLAH. Men, on the other hand are told they should make things, do things, be successful, get a ball and chain if you feel like it but if you don't, wahey, bachelerhood is a laaarf!

I don't believe that you think men are sexualised and valued on their sexability as much as, or in the same way that women are. It's fucking nuts like. Pretty much all of my female friends are perpetually worried about their weight. Pretty much none of my male friends have ever had an eating disorder or made themselves vomit because they felt guilty [insert exceptions about modren men and metrosexuals here].

Seriously, forcing your partner to have sex with your friends is not common.
That's a very unfair and wrong comparison to make.

Dude, I'm happy to debate with you, but you're wrong here. It is a form of abuse that men frequently do to women. I can produce reports and research that shows this happens.

What about the women and men who did not find the joke offensive?

What about them?

This is another completely unfair comparison to make.

Why is it unfair? When I tell you that your joke uses sexism to make it funny, and rape in adulthood is a gender-based crime, how is that unfair? Rape is unfair, me pointing out some shit about it in a thread about sexism is not. I'm not comparing YOU to a rapist Oly. I genuinely think you're awesome, and I really really don't think you treat women badly or are any more sexist that anyone else (I do think you're a shit stirrer, of course), but I thought your language and joke was shit and perpetuating gender stereotypes that are very very intertwined with sexual violence.


Ed- respectfully, if you're not bothered reading my posts, fine but don't expect me to continue in this vein. I've responded to everything you've said, including mentioning homelessnes, adult trauma of childhood sexual abuse, etc.

Hi Jen!!

 

[Janer]

Honest question Buzzo, how comes you only ever post on these Female rights threads on Eirecore?
Eirecore is much more than Female rights threads....let's talk about other stuff too.

 

[spuded]

Ed- respectfully, if you're not bothered reading my posts, fine but don't expect me to continue in this vein. I've responded to everything you've said, including mentioning homelessnes, adult trauma of childhood sexual abuse, etc.

maybe I read the line "women have the adult trauma, men don't" incorrectly. And I wasn't discussing other posts you made just the ones in this thread. But anyway this is pointless as you seem to think I don't wanna see your point (I had read all your posts and I find it insulting you think I would respond without reading them through several times as you know how serious a topic I feel this is), you seem not to want to see my points also so I guess that's it.

 

[the strange guy]

I said I was leaving this thread but this should be my last post here.

You really must think I'm a bit of a thicko.

No, Aoife, I don't think you're a thicko.
You said only women are rated by their 'fuckability', I used examples off the top of my head to argue that it was not true.
Please, there is no need at all to take all of this so personally.
I'd never dream of calling you a thicko or suggesting you're a thicko, so there's no need to be as defensive as you're being right now.
We're just having a debate, not doling out digs.
Please don't pretend that we're trading insults because we definitely are not.

Dude, I'm happy to debate with you, but you're wrong here. It is a form of abuse that men frequently do to women. I can produce reports and research that shows this happens.

I'm not doubting that this has happened and still happens.
But I do doubt that this is a common and frequent occurrence in Ireland.
By common I mean that a significant number of Irish men abuse their spouses by forcing them to have sex with their friends and that they do this frequently.
I'd be interested in reading the link.