Hello (4 Viewers)

[Buzzo]

Oly, you opened the can of worms by being sexist in the way you were talking about women at the beginning of this thread. Your sexism was a catalyst for Nooly's call for a discussion on the sexism on Eirecore and Thumped, and people’s apathy or silence about it. I don't believe you genuinely equate men's exclusion from women's only spaces as something equally pervasive, bad and worthy of discussion as sexism and gender inequality experienced by women. With all due respect, I'd like to talk about women, and sexism that we experience, without recourse to your issues with women's only spaces or feminist activism.

It's really unfortunate, but I experience sexism everyday, like EVERY day in real life. Sometimes I challenge it or shout about it, sometimes I leave it. Most days on Eirecore or Thumped I find myself having to bite my tongue in the face of casual sexism. I've kind of minimised posting on Thumped generally as it can be tiring challenging people, and disheartening ignoring it. The internet, like many have pointed out, is infinitely more problematic for this stuff: People are more likely to say offensive shit under cover of their computer, they are less likely to try to understand or apologise when there's a load of other people reading it, other people reading it are likely to deny the experience of the person offended and side with the other person etc. I know there's plently of women and men who perceive the sexism and disagree with it, but don't challenge it or speak out about it. That's cool, it's up to people to engage in whatever discussions they like on these fora, but sometimes (despite the supportive messages and rep comments that always go with these threads) you feel like you're one of a couple of voices in the wilderness around this stuff. Sometimes it's great though, sometimes people call the shit out of sexism all over Thumped and Eirecore, and sometimes people show solidarity. Mostly not though.

ps- what Dunch said!

 

[the strange guy]

Ultimately, to my eyes, gender equality is needed in Ireland much more than feminism.
Men are battered and murdered every day in Ireland.
A feminist group is not going to challenge gun culture, knife culture or machismo.
Men also suffer domestic abuse at the hands of their spouses.
A feminist group can provide no solidarity to these men.
Two alleged sexual assaults occurred over the last weekend in Oxegen.
But how many men were assaulted?
Perhaps the reason why these figures are not released is because of our society's acceptance that violence perpetrated against men is somewhat acceptable.
How are Ireland's feminist groups planning on changing this view?

A group that is openly concerned with everyone's rights has a much better chance of changing these mindsets.
By 'openly concerned' I mean those that would neither label themselves feminists nor patriarchs but equalists.

Of course, there are countries like India, Pakistan, Sudan, Chad, etc. that are in dire need of a gender revolution.
Ireland is not one of these countries any more.

All of our opinions are floating around this board and none of our opinions have changed.
I'm not interested in going around in circles again.
Whether or not you agree with what I wrote in simple terms in my last post is completely up to you.
I'm not here to change anyone's minds, I'm just trying to express my point of view.
All of this will descend into wordy, intellectual shite that only two or three people will be interested in, everyone else who you hope to get through to will feel alienated or just find the whole debate boring and stick to the YouTube threads.

So if it's going to be another round of massive posts where we repackage our old arguments then consider me out.

edit -
Buzzo: It was a joke.
If Ailbhe said she was going to go out and throw the groom's cock into her in front of her sister then I don't think we would have this conversation.
Maybe it would be described as 'liberal', 'refreshing' or that 'she is comfortable with her sexuality'.

If people want to discuss the pro's and con's of dirty jokes 'in the scene', I'm all for it.
But not another rehash of old threads.

 

[reformer]

examples of this social ordering include the concept of the nuclear family,

i fail to see how nuclear families are considered social ordering,since the beginning of mankind families have been based along these lines and if you look into families amongst animals they all have the same basis so rather than it being a social order id imagine its just an inherent trait in animals to order themselves this way on a family level and not some grand scheme to keep wimmin in their place.

 

[taubstumm]

i fail to see how nuclear families are considered social ordering,since the beginning of mankind families have been based along these lines and if you look into families amongst animals they all have the same basis so rather than it being a social order id imagine its just an inherent trait in animals to order themselves this way on a family level and not some grand scheme to keep wimmin in their place.

you'd be totally wrong, dude

 

[reformer]

you'd be totally wrong, dude

compelling argument,im probably just reading the wrong books.

 

[ailbhe]

...sexism on Eirecore and Thumped, and people’s apathy or silence about it.

for me its this idea that really pisses me off. some people who claim to be femanists think that the only reason that people dont talk about these things are because they are apathic. perhaps its because other people dont agree that there is that much sexism and dont experience what you claim to experiecnce day in day out. im not blind to anything .... it insults me and many others when you say that we are, that we just dont notice the sexism. did you ever think that perhaps in our view that these things arent infact sexist. do you not think that you should stop insulting people because they dont have the same perception of things as you do. or have you decided that we just need more education on the subject... aaah nice and condicending. there is a whole lot of "femenists" that think just because people arnt talking about these things that they dont care.
for me if i felt there were issues i would be going to the groups doing the whole 'im a femanist' thing, but i dont see it as a problem what so ever. some people are dicks not particullarly sexist just dick heads, across the country. i dont see that there is a huge sexist problem in ireland. thats why i dont bother. so please dont call me or other people apathic... its just insulting

 

[Cormcolash]

"Sexism isn't just a political discussion dude... it's a real thing that women experience."

I would just like to point out that this is a sexist statement, as men also experience sexism and the above statement makes absolutely no acknowledgement of this, but rather implies that only women experience sexism.

Secondly, I basically agree with all the serious points that Oly has made.

Thirdly, "All of this will descend into wordy, intellectual shite that only two or three people will be interested in, everyone else who you hope to get through to will feel alienated or just find the whole debate boring and stick to the YouTube threads." yeah probably.

Finally, this thread is still amazing.

 

[spuded]

for me its this idea that really pisses me off. some people who claim to be femanists think that the only reason that people dont talk about these things are because they are apathic. perhaps its because other people dont agree that there is that much sexism and dont experience what you claim to experiecnce day in day out. im not blind to anything .... it insults me and many others when you say that we are, that we just dont notice the sexism. did you ever think that perhaps in our view that these things arent infact sexist. do you not think that you should stop insulting people because they dont have the same perception of things as you do. or have you decided that we just need more education on the subject... aaah nice and condicending. insulting

this was the point I was trying to make, that just because the whole of eirecore didn't jump up to attack the comments deemed sexist at the beginning of the thread does not mean we are all apathetic or don't have a clue. And that was my original problem with only one post nooly made where she said only two people in the punk scene had a 'clue' (her words not mine) about issues such as sexism, I honestly think that's a very harsh statement to make. People are entitled to agree and disagree, people are entitled to not feel like something is sexist, people are entitled to feel something is sexist. But as ailbhe said you can't attack people for not wanting/feeling they needed to respond to the issues raised.

And one final thing, yet again when the issue of gender equality is raised the issues made in relation to men are swept under the carpet. I have worked with men who ended up homeless due to abusive/violent spouses, this is not uncommon believe you me. If I as one worker in the past 7 years have come across over 50 cases of this would that not mean it's something worth discussing. I have seen terrible inequality in the social services and i found it ironic that these male victims of domestic abuse had no choice to work on their problems with male or female staff, that wasn't even considered an issue, however as a male social care worker it is very restricted for me to work with women who are victims of domestic abuse. I wish then when these issues are brought up it wouldn't turn into a 'well women/men' have it worse thread but it's something that people never respond to adequately when I bring it up.

 

[Buzzo]

Oly- You’re patronising me, you know I know it’s a joke. The problem is the ‘joke’. If it wasn’t playing on gender stereotypes of women as being there to be fucked (never mind fucked without any consent from the woman implied …) then why is it funny? What’s funny about it like? Why didn’t you make the joke about the groom?

When men are perpetually judged primarily on their fuckability, then your joke might be funny. When it would be ridiculous to imagine a woman having non-consensual sex at the behest of a man ('fuck my new wife!'), your joke might be funny. When it’s no longer common for men to force their women partners to have sex with their friends as a form of sexual abuse your joke might be funny. But it wouldn’t be funny then, would it, because these things are only funny when there’s a ring of truth to them- otherwise they just sound ridiculous. Right now your joke is just sexist. I’m a woman, and it’s offensive to me.

The ‘if Ailbhe said’ [sorry for talking about you in the third person here Ailbhe] thing doesn’t really have the same implications. Just like an immigrant slagging off the Irish, Ailbhe making such comments just wouldn’t hold the same weight, because she, as a woman does not have the same power as men in a society based on gender inequality and male advantage. Yeah, it’d be dirty and funny if she said it I reckon, because I don’t tend to find other women sexually threatening, what with the chances of me being sexually assaulted by a woman probably less than being struck by lightening, but a fair fucking chance I’ll be raped by a dude in my life. This goes for most women. For men, it’s different, you have a slim chance of being sexually assaulted, and again, the chances of that being a woman are practically zilch. This shit really isn't funny like.


If you’re so tired of bringing up old arguments, then why are you bringing up all that what about the men stuff? If you read over one of the old threads, you’ll remember that there is no argument that men are victims, but it is men who commit violence on men, it is men who sexually assault men, it is men who send men to war, it is men who send men to prison, it is men who make decisions that effect men. If there is the odd exceptional woman or ten who does these things, it’s still horrible for the victim, but it is unusual and does not disprove the theory that there is huge problems as a result of gender stereotypes that predominantly favour men. The problem is a system that disproportionately gives men this power. Feminism criticises this, feminism criticises the system. The failure to acknowledge the role of gender and patriarchy in all of these societal problems is dangerous, irresponsible and frankly stupid. If you make jokes that play into these dangerous stereotypes or that ridicule very real, horrible experiences for women then expect to be called on it.

These debates are not ‘intellectual shite’, it’s reality for me, and (seeing as you’re so concerned about men) the lives of the hundreds of young men in homeless shelters, buried as a result of suicide, in prison, killing each other on the streets etc. But moreso, it has been the problem of women all over the world for thousands of years, and continues to be so.

Ailbhe- I don't expect all women to see the world the way I do and if they don't, that's their business. If they do, I don't expect them to engage in discussions about it or do anything about it, that's their business. I purposely said apathy or silence, so as not to imply that everyone was apathetic. I never presume that people haven’t thought about this or are ignorant of it. You’re entitled to your views and maybe you’ve had bad experiences at the hands of feminists, but attacking me based on presumptions about my opinions of non-feminist women isn’t fair.

 

[taubstumm]

"Sexism isn't just a political discussion dude... it's a real thing that women experience."

I would just like to point out that this is a sexist statement, as men also experience sexism and the above statement makes absolutely no acknowledgement of this, but rather implies that only women experience sexism.

corm, you're a plank

 

[spuded]

lightening, but a fair fucking chance I’ll be raped by a dude in my life. This goes for most women. For men, it’s different, you have a slim chance of being sexually assaulted..

You obviously seem to have forgotten the tens of thousands of men who suffered at the hands of Christian brothers and the clergy here in Ireland. In these cases men have been the majority of those who have been affected by clerical sexual abuse as most of this abuse took place in male only reform schools.

 

[taubstumm]

You obviously seem to have forgotten the tens of thousands of men who suffered at the hands of Christian brothers and the clergy here in Ireland. In these cases men have been the majority of those who have been affected by clerical sexual abuse as most of this abuse took place in male only reform schools.

spuded, you're also a plank

 

[spuded]

spuded, you're also a plank

jaysus your arguments are watertight

 

[taubstumm]

jaysus your arguments are watertight

i admit i'm not exactly putting in much effort

but then the point you were making was pretty weak, ma fren

 

[taubstumm]

ah here, oly

a de-repping for that?

lame and weak, as jason newsted might say

 

[spuded]

i admit i'm not exactly putting in much effort

but then the point you were making was pretty weak, ma fren

how exactly is it a weak point? Buzzo was saying in the context of ireland that there is a slim chance of men being sexual assaulted which evidently is not true if you actually have had any first hand knowledge of things such as the redress board.

 

[taubstumm]

how exactly is it a weak point? Buzzo was saying in the context of ireland that there is a slim chance of men being sexual assaulted which evidently is not true if you actually have had any first hand knowledge of things such as the redress board.

it's a strong point in a completely different argument

 

[Cormcolash]

Seems to me you're far more convinced of women being "second-class citizens" than I'll ever be.

"a woman does not have the same power as men in a society based on gender inequality and male advantage"

What do you mean by power? What power do I have that, just for instance, you don't?

Not trying to offend, but it looks to me like you're far too convinced by your own arguments for there to be any point in you actually having an argument about feminism.

Anyway, I agree with Oly in that this entire discussion is utterly pointless as it will only result in people going round and round and round with the same arguments they've already made.

Oly- You’re patronising me, you know I know it’s a joke. The problem is the ‘joke’. If it wasn’t playing on gender stereotypes of women as being there to be fucked (never mind fucked without any consent from the woman implied …) then why is it funny? What’s funny about it like? Why didn’t you make the joke about the groom?

When men are perpetually judged primarily on their fuckability, then your joke might be funny. When it would be ridiculous to imagine a woman having non-consensual sex at the behest of a man ('fuck my new wife!'), your joke might be funny. When it’s no longer common for men to force their women partners to have sex with their friends as a form of sexual abuse your joke might be funny. But it wouldn’t be funny then, would it, because these things are only funny when there’s a ring of truth to them- otherwise they just sound ridiculous. Right now your joke is just sexist. I’m a woman, and it’s offensive to me.

The ‘if Ailbhe said’ [sorry for talking about you in the third person here Ailbhe] thing doesn’t really have the same implications. Just like an immigrant slagging off the Irish, Ailbhe making such comments just wouldn’t hold the same weight, because she, as a woman does not have the same power as men in a society based on gender inequality and male advantage. Yeah, it’d be dirty and funny if she said it I reckon, because I don’t tend to find other women sexually threatening, what with the chances of me being sexually assaulted by a woman probably less than being struck by lightening, but a fair fucking chance I’ll be raped by a dude in my life. This goes for most women. For men, it’s different, you have a slim chance of being sexually assaulted, and again, the chances of that being a woman are practically zilch. This shit really isn't funny like.


If you’re so tired of bringing up old arguments, then why are you bringing up all that what about the men stuff? If you read over one of the old threads, you’ll remember that there is no argument that men are victims, but it is men who commit violence on men, it is men who sexually assault men, it is men who send men to war, it is men who send men to prison, it is men who make decisions that effect men. If there is the odd exceptional woman or ten who does these things, it’s still horrible for the victim, but it is unusual and does not disprove the theory that there is huge problems as a result of gender stereotypes that predominantly favour men. The problem is a system that disproportionately gives men this power. Feminism criticises this, feminism criticises the system. The failure to acknowledge the role of gender and patriarchy in all of these societal problems is dangerous, irresponsible and frankly stupid. If you make jokes that play into these dangerous stereotypes or that ridicule very real, horrible experiences for women then expect to be called on it.

These debates are not ‘intellectual shite’, it’s reality for me, and (seeing as you’re so concerned about men) the lives of the hundreds of young men in homeless shelters, buried as a result of suicide, in prison, killing each other on the streets etc. But moreso, it has been the problem of women all over the world for thousands of years, and continues to be so.

Ailbhe- I don't expect all women to see the world the way I do and if they don't, that's their business. If they do, I don't expect them to engage in discussions about it or do anything about it, that's their business. I purposely said apathy or silence, so as not to imply that everyone was apathetic. I never presume that people haven’t thought about this or are ignorant of it. You’re entitled to your views and maybe you’ve had bad experiences at the hands of feminists, but attacking me based on presumptions about my opinions of non-feminist women isn’t fair.

 

[spuded]

it's a strong point in a completely different argument

mm how short is your memory span mate? I was responding to a statement that had been made about how unlikely it was for men to be victims of a sexual crime, which in a historical context in Ireland is untrue.

 

[spuded]

Also have a look at 1 in 4 2006 annual report, if you don't know who they are they basically are a 'one stop shop' for people who have suffered sexual assaults, the numbers of men and women who accessed their counselling service was pretty much 50/50 and in fact a larger group of men were referred to psychology services for help, mainly due (this is in their report) that more men felt uncomfortable in the group counselling sessions.

One to one therapy was broken down as such
Men 186
Women 168

28% of people who accessed their services were victims of clerical abuse.

These are facts and I can't see how you think this doesn't relate