Which Recording Studio is best? (1 Viewer)

[kings lead hat]

dunno boss i loved the low end on it ....
all the reggae guys use it cos the low end iz wkd innit

theres the mad professer
anyway each to their own!.|..|

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Ah, I wondered if you'd tracked on the desk too. I take it you weren't beating the shit out of it in tracking?
FWIW, I prefer the sound of transformers to valves, if you know what I mean. Valves can get kinda slow and mushy. Plenty of times that can be cool, buh.

Hey, where in Ireland has a U47?
Also - ribbons are tougher than you might think - I'm not gonna go sticking one on kick or snare, mind you.

 

[kraster]

dunno boss i loved the low end on it ....
all the reggae guys use it cos the low end iz wkd innit

theres the mad professer
anyway each to their own!.|..|

Ah...there he is...
I'm sure that the reggae guys love that stuff because of the Low end: great for dub etc. It's just too much for me.
The problem I have with a lot TL Audio stuff is that it exploits weaknesses in valve circuit design.

Take something like a V72 or V76 preamp. The thing that would strike you about them is that they don't sound "warm", punchy etc. etc. They sound pretty transparent. The High end is as clear as a bell. The Bottom end is all there but contained and clean as a whistle.

The TL Audio stuff I've used runs into distortion quicker than I'd like and is adding stuff that wasn't there in the first place. Like the guitar player I mentioned I was unable to get the sound he wanted until I switched the preamp. Again, as you say, each to their own.

Ah, I wondered if you'd tracked on the desk too. I take it you weren't beating the shit out of it in tracking?
FWIW, I prefer the sound of transformers to valves, if you know what I mean. Valves can get kinda slow and mushy. Plenty of times that can be cool, buh.

Hey, where in Ireland has a U47?
Also - ribbons are tougher than you might think - I'm not gonna go sticking one on kick or snare, mind you.

Nah, I was pretty conservative with the tracking levels as I didn't like the sound when I pushed it too hard. There was "extra" stuff there that I didn't ask for.

Are you talking about valve vs. transisitor as opposed to valve vs. transformer. As both circuit designs use transformers (generally)?

It is possible to design a circuit to sound like whatever you want it to sound regardless of the design being valve based or solid-state. The Chandler TG channel sounds very "vintage" and it's 100% solid state whereas the likes of the Manley valve gear sound super clean and modern.

Again all this is subject to the YMMV rule.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Take something like a V72 or V76 preamp. The thing that would strike you about them is that they don't sound "warm", punchy etc. etc. They sound pretty transparent. The High end is as clear as a bell. The Bottom end is all there but contained and clean as a whistle.

This is what I'm talking about.. transformer in and out, Class A topology. Clean, clear, warm, open. If you beat the shit out of the input, transformer saturation sounds lovely to me, nicer than wooly overloading valves for most things, anyway.
Where are you using U47s and V72/6's??

 

[JOHNSON PETER]

Quite innerestin' that you all talk of gear so inclusively, as if this is THE way to get results.

I have recorded in world class studios...they would have have literally spent millions on gear. Analog, digital you name it. Home and abroad. What makes a good studio is how the personnel approach using said gear.

How would you approach each artist/ band? I like the discussion but it is veering off my thread a bit, eh!

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Yeah, I was asking a moderator to split off the valve gear discussion since it has nothing to do with your original question.

As for how to approach each band, there's as many answers to that as there are bands, to a certain extent.
To boil it down, what I do is :

1. Find out what the band want
2. Get them happy/comfortable with the recording space
3. Set up and get sounds
4. Get takes that everyone is happy with

I don't know how to get any more specific unless you want to ask more detailed questions.

Also, it's pretty much all about the personnel, like you said. Only a smart dude will know how to get the best out of gear, be it Behringer or Brauner.

 

[Rogue]

Yeah, I was asking a moderator to split off the valve gear discussion since it has nothing to do with your original question.

I was really enjoying following that, like hanging out at the studio listening to the old hands talkin' shop and chewin' tobacca! (not chewbacca, obviously....I'll get my coat.)

 

[kraster]

Yeah, I was asking a moderator to split off the valve gear discussion since it has nothing to do with your original question.

As for how to approach each band, there's as many answers to that as there are bands, to a certain extent.
To boil it down, what I do is :

1. Find out what the band want
2. Get them happy/comfortable with the recording space
3. Set up and get sounds
4. Get takes that everyone is happy with

I don't know how to get any more specific unless you want to ask more detailed questions.

Also, it's pretty much all about the personnel, like you said. Only a smart dude will know how to get the best out of gear, be it Behringer or Brauner.

Co-sign.
I remember recording in a studio once where the engineer kept putting unrequested "FX" on everything. They were nice effects. The best money can buy. But completely unrequested and unrequired by the band..

Studios in Dublin worth looking at:

Apollo: Neve VR desk. Protools HD3 with 32 in 40 out. Manley, Universal Audio, Distressors etc. This is more of a MIX studio than a tracking studio but it is possible to track there. About 600 a day: But can be bargained down

Sun: SSL Desk, Protools HD3, Distressors, Good Mic collection. Not sure of the price. Again, open to haggling.

Westland: SSL G series, Radar, Otari 24 track, Studer 1/2 inch two track, Nice outboard(ish), Big Live room, Lot of Mics, Piano etc. etc. Not sure of the price.

They're the three Biggies I can think of. There's lots of others around. Cheaper and maybe more suited to your needs.

Mr. Red Tape runs his own studio but he's too modest to mention it! Haven't been there myself but it looks good.

 

[kraster]

This is what I'm talking about.. transformer in and out, Class A topology. Clean, clear, warm, open. If you beat the shit out of the input, transformer saturation sounds lovely to me, nicer than wooly overloading valves for most things, anyway.
Where are you using U47s and V72/6's??

Now back to the meaty stuff!

There are no studio owned U47s in Ireland. There are some privately owned ones AFAIK. The one I used was out foreign.
I have a v76. It's being repaired at the moment. Some old guy in Germany is hand winding one of the transformers as we speak. Prepare to puke. I got the V76 for €40 off some guy who didn't know what it was. Nice.

I just think the tendency to beat the shit out of the input transformer/valve is abusing the equipment unless it's a specific distorted sound your looking for. YMMV.
I've heard you rightfully mention that the commonly accepted sound of tape ie. Saturation, compression etc. is abuse of the format and not the intended sound that the designers of said tape were trying to acheive.

I don't believe in hitting anything hard whether it be Preamp/Tape/ Compressor etc. The gear was intended to be used within certain tolerances.
The more you deviate from these tolerances the less the gear will sound like it was designed to. Everyone seems to be obsessed with distortion.

On the subject of gear. It's hugely important. I agree if you have a monkey behind the controls it'll sound like crap regardless of gear. But if you have someone competent behind the controls than it'll sound great but even better when there's good gear being used. A no brainer. There is a reason that good gear costs more. It's funny, I've found the more expensive gear gets the less immediately amazing it seems. Lower priced gear tends to excite and dazzle with its antics but it doesn't remain faithful to the original sound and is harder to sit in to the mix. Its Inherent flaws also have a cumulative effect on Music.


My .02 cents

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

There's that place I keep forgetting the name of... grrr.. oh, Beechpark - looks like a quality place. I'd love to do some work out there. PRicey enough, I'd imagine.

http://www.beechpark.com/home.htm

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

I got the V76 for €40 off some guy who didn't know what it was. Nice.

AARGHH.

I just think the tendency to beat the shit out of the input transformer/valve is abusing the equipment unless it's a specific distorted sound your looking for. YMMV.

Oh, totally. I like that my Neve-clone pre can do that when I'm after that kind of sound, but that it's also clean and sweet when I just want gain.

I've heard you rightfully mention that the commonly accepted sound of tape ie. Saturation, compression etc. is abuse of the format and not the intended sound that the designers of said tape were trying to acheive.

Yeah, and particularly when valve was the only game in town, designers and engineers would try everything humanly possible to avoid the noise/distortion that some folks believe todays valve gear will give them.

I don't believe in hitting anything hard whether it be Preamp/Tape/ Compressor etc. The gear was intended to be used within certain tolerances.
The more you deviate from these tolerances the less the gear will sound like it was designed to. Everyone seems to be obsessed with distortion.

Yeah, but with great gear you can operate at the edge of tolerance for much longer before stuff starts sounding gammy. I'll generally only be beating the shit out of tape/pres/comps if I'm looking for a certain sound ie distorted/compressed to hell room mic etc.

On the subject of gear. It's hugely important...

Totally, but I'd rather have Joe Barresi with a Mackie and 57's than a student engineer with a Neve and a load of Neumanns.

 

[kraster]

Yeah, but with great gear you can operate at the edge of tolerance for much longer before stuff starts sounding gammy. I'll generally only be beating the shit out of tape/pres/comps if I'm looking for a certain sound ie distorted/compressed to hell room mic etc.

I dunno about this. Most specs given for gear are given assuming that the gear will be used in a certain way. Once you exceed these specs by caning the input the rest of the specs go to hell in a bucket. A neve, for example, might not sound as good overdriven as say, a Langevin. I know they're two different devices but just because a piece of gear operates perfectly well under its ideal usage doesn't necessarily mean you get more of the same sweet sounds when you exceed the specs by caning it. Sometimes you do. The question of which is more appropriate/euphonic is in the ear of the beholder.

Obviously if it sounds good it sounds a good regardless of specs but it's often be a case where if I exceed the tolerances of certain nice gear it'll start sounding shit whereas if I down grade to something inferior it'll give me what I'm looking for.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Reminds me of the live sound dude I saw clipping the two buss of a live console the other night.. also had the treble turned up to 11 on the kick mic. Hm.

 

[kraster]

Reminds me of the live sound dude I saw clipping the two buss of a live console the other night.. also had the treble turned up to 11 on the kick mic. Hm.

I bet the kick sounded "nice and clear". Strap a fifty pence on to the Beater and the click pad. Clickety kick.
Have you heard St. Anger by metallica? That is the definitive clicky kick sound.
There's more top end in it than in the hi-hats.

A friend of mine got one of his eardrums burst while attending a ballad session in the Embankment in Tallaght. H and H Pa all wound up to the end stops. Treble knobs wound up all the way. Bass knobs broken off.
One Banjo note. One perforated eardrum. Ouch.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Fucking hell.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Oh, and damn In hate clicky kicks. The live guy's kick sounded like an insanely gate kick - no attack, no decay.

 

[Pantone247]

I don't believe in hitting anything hard whether it be Preamp/Tape/ Compressor etc. The gear was intended to be used within certain tolerances.
The more you deviate from these tolerances the less the gear will sound like it was designed to. Everyone seems to be obsessed with distortion.

I tell you what, if your using shit gear, on shit instruments, in a shit room, on yr shit songs, getting a big agressive acoustic sound that sounds really bombastic and blown out can be kind of exciting...

then you track two of them... on each side... then you get a flithy growl of a bass sound that's aces solo'd, then you you add tambourine (clip the pre a little to get it all zingy) go all Sparkle Horse on the vocals make the drum machine all 8bit and nasty... and hey presto, put up all the faders and it's utter mush...

I don't know, I guess my point it's exciting to get crazy big sounds, but very hard to decide not to do it for the sake of the final mix...

 

[kraster]

I tell you what, if your using shit gear, on shit instruments, in a shit room, on yr shit songs, getting a big agressive acoustic sound that sounds really bombastic and blown out can be kind of exciting...

then you track two of them... on each side... then you get a flithy growl of a bass sound that's aces solo'd, then you you add tambourine (clip the pre a little to get it all zingy) go all Sparkle Horse on the vocals make the drum machine all 8bit and nasty... and hey presto, put up all the faders and it's utter mush...

I don't know, I guess my point it's exciting to get crazy big sounds, but very hard to decide not to do it for the sake of the final mix...

My comment is taken out of context. Hell, I'll drive anything to the ends of the earth if that's what's required. My point was that sometimes shit gear is better when you want to drive the sound and that good gear mightn't sound so good when it's overdriven.

 

[Pantone247]

My comment is taken out of context. Hell, I'll drive anything to the ends of the earth if that's what's required. My point was that sometimes shit gear is better when you want to drive the sound and that good gear mightn't sound so good when it's overdriven.

oops, didn't mean to be attcking yr comment or taking it out of context....

just telling stories...

I like stories...

 

[MDR]

Quite innerestin' that you all talk of gear so inclusively, as if this is THE way to get results.

I have recorded in world class studios...they would have have literally spent millions on gear. Analog, digital you name it. Home and abroad. What makes a good studio is how the personnel approach using said gear.

How would you approach each artist/ band? I like the discussion but it is veering off my thread a bit, eh!

Speaking as a non-technical person, in my experience the single biggest difference in the quality of the recording is the engineer. I have used engineers in the past who were grumpy or who didn't really pay attention or who just didn't give much thought to their role in the whole thing.

I've just finished a project with Mr Red Tape Menace here by the way which i was very happy with, both in terms of how is was done and how it turned out (results of it to be released in June by the way).The key to it was the fact that we had a good working relationship which helped overcome some of the problems we had in what was a hit and miss studio. He also knows a shot load about recording which helped.

Oh yeah, and good mics are important.