Vatican urges christians not to donate to Amnesty International (1 Viewer)

[RSJ]

If there was ever a reason needed to hate the church...

The Vatican has urged all Catholics to stop donating money to Amnesty International, accusing the human rights group of promoting abortion.

The Vatican also said it was suspending all financial aid to Amnesty over what it said was the group's recent change of policy on the issue.

Amnesty said it was not promoting abortion as a universal right.

But the group said that women had a right to choose, particularly in cases of rape or incest.

"No more financing of Amnesty International after the organisation's pro-abortion about-turn," said a statement from the Roman Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

'Misrepresented account'

The council's president, Cardinal Renato Martino, described abortion as "murder".

"And to justify it selectively, in the event of rape, that is to define an innocent child in the belly of its mother as an enemy, as 'something one can destroy'," the cardinal said.

Amnesty says it does not take any position on whether abortion is right or wrong.

But it defended its new position in support of abortion for women when their health is in danger or human rights are violated, especially in cases of rape or incest.

"We are saying broadly that to criminalise women's management of their sexual reproductive right is the wrong answer," Amnesty's deputy Secretary General Kate Gilmore told Reuters news agency.

"The Catholic Church, through a misrepresented account of our position on selective aspects of abortion, is placing in peril work on human rights," Ms Gilmore said.

Some 45 million unintended pregnancies are terminated around the world every year, the World Health Organisation says.

Nearly 70,000 women die annually from unsafe abortions, it says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6750887.stm

 

[Mormon Nailer]

I guess you'll just have to stop going to mass so?

 

[ernesto]

wow.
fuckheads.

 

[RSJ]

I guess you'll just have to stop going to mass so?

Pffft, please, i stopped going to mass weeks ago.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Pffft, please, i stopped going to mass weeks ago.

ohh sorry, then you should bring the issue up with your spiritual director and see what he has to say on the matter.

 

[Anthony]

I reckon amnesty will do alright out of this.

 

[Buzzo]

I reckon amnesty will do alright out of this.

They could well do

 

[pete]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0818/amnesty.html

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

you christians destroyed our tribe - i'll fight you til i die
and you can cut me down for what i said but goodness lives where god is dead

love is the great triumph over christianity!!

 

[Squiggle]

Actually, it's only Catholics that are being urged not to donate... not Christians - there is a difference.

And most Catholics who are actually Christian will and do ignore the more insane edicts of their church.

 

[jane]

Actually, it's only Catholics that are being urged not to donate... not Christians - there is a difference.

And most Catholics who are actually Christian will and do ignore the more insane edicts of their church.

If by 'Christians' as in, 'judge not lest ye be judged' and 'everyone is a child of god' (in which case, let's not create this creepy hierarchy of innocents in which case a theoretical foetus who does not actually exist is more important than an actual person in an actual cell with actual jumper cables attached to his/her actual genitals), then we do not include 'Sindocrats':

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/h...mnesty-abortion-belief-a-mistake-1061204.html

Because I think the real Jesus, whether he was a real dude, or just a mythical repository for the collective moral conscience (whose values should and do change according to how we define rights and wrongs), might perhaps suggest that rather than deny Amnesty the support that would help alleviate the kinds of situations that lead to rape being used as a weapon against women and thus these theoretical foetuses they think Amnesty delights in slaughtering, he'd go, "Hi, there are more than a billion people in the world whose lives are at risk from the lack of clean water, and that doesn't even begin to account for those with nice, cholera-free taps who are at risk of, I dunno, being mercilessly slaughtered, locked up and tortured without apparent cause, can we please not be distracted by a bunch of slack-balled old childfuckers' political cockfight? Kthnx." In fact, that's exactly what he would say. He came to me in my sleep and told me.

And then he gave me these words of advice to pass on: "JAner, stay off this thread. Kthx."

Does the Vatican know or care that neither the bible nor theologians -- until very recently -- ever really say whether a foetus is a human life and thus is included in the 'thou shalt not kill' thing? And also, the bible also says you can kill your wife or slave, which means that if it's a biblical or theological justification someone wants to stand on, then all you have to do to get around that if you wanna eject a foetus is either buy it or marry it.

And cue Thumped shitstorm.

 

[jane]

By the way, I would like to point out that while Amnesty didn't necessarily say one way or the other where they stand on total and free access to abortion, their support for it is in the case where it jeapordises the life of the mother, is the result of rape or incest, etc. In general, under pretty much the same conditions in which it is actually permitted in Ireland. In which case, this Vatican ruling should be upsetting even those who don't believe in reproductive choice.

 

[Squiggle]

Avoiding the dangerous 'a' discussion, I find it a bit rich that a church that has used it's members money to support some of the most evil people (look at some of the early popes, and throughout history sexual 'deviancy' that they would condemn publicly has been rife through their priesthood) and fund some of the worst religious and social persecution (the inquisitions for example), is taking any kind of moral highground and telling people who they should, or shouldn't, give their money to.

 

[jane]

Avoiding the dangerous 'a' discussion, I find it a bit rich that a church that has used it's members money to support some of the most evil people (look at some of the early popes, and throughout history sexual 'deviancy' that they would condemn publicly has been rife through their priesthood) and fund some of the worst religious and social persecution (the inquisitions for example), is taking any kind of moral highground and telling people who they should, or shouldn't, give their money to.

That's the thing. I mean, it doesn't even get to the issue of choice, it's the fact that the conditions in which Amnesty is suggesting abortion be supported are basically those in which even the most restrictive of developed nations allows it. It just makes it look as if the Vatican is so desperate to hang on to its footing in the developing world, where the poorest of the poor are the only people it can still control, that it would risk people's lives just to maintain that tenuous hold. It's just so sad. And the thing is, it assumes that any woman offered an abortion will have one, which is not the case. It's just giving the option to a rape victim, or a woman who could die as a result of pregnancy the option of having a clean, safe abortion instead of the choice between a filthy backstreet one and certain death.

These people have enough problems without the Vatican suggesting they be given more of them. I think yeah, most people with a bit of sense will realise what's happening, but if you look at the different articles, and who omits/includes the bit about the rape/incest/risk to life, it's even sadder. The conservative ones seem to leave it out, making it look like Amnesty is condoning free choice. Now, as an advocate of free choice, this wouldn't bother me, but it would bother a lot of people who would otherwise support Amnesty as well as the access to abortion services in these limited cases. The less conservative sources are generally including a fuller picture. That's probably even more terrifying -- Amnesty would not lost much support if it were being reported properly, but it's not. Even that indo piece is based on the dubious interpretation that the Amnesty statement means there'll be Planned Parenthood clinics all over Darfur.

 

[Squiggle]

The same church has often urged that support be removed from aid groups that promote any form of contraception - most Christians understand the importance of family planning and the role that large family size plays in continuing the poverty trap - but not the catholic church it seems.

Nothing that they do shocks me any more though. Hypocrites are as hypocrites do.

 

[jane]

The same church has often urged that support be removed from aid groups that promote any form of contraception - most Christians understand the importance of family planning and the role that large family size plays in continuing the poverty trap - but not the catholic church it seems.

Nothing that they do shocks me any more though. Hypocrites are as hypocrites do.

True, true. I just think that people who've managed to maintain their religious beliefs as well as live in the real world and acknowledge reality wouldn't be too bothered about what the Vatican says.

From what I've heard -- and you probably know more about this than I do -- even some of the CAtholic clergy 'on the ground' ignore the Vatican's bullshit. Partly because I imagine that once someone has left the gilded marble corridors of the Vatican and is faced with a battered rape victim who is too sick to carry a foetus to term, most human beings would have a difficult time looking her in the eye and condemning her to death just because some repressed old dudes said so.

 

[RSJ]

...

 

[magicbastarder]

i can't imagine many people who donate to amnesty would be at all concerned about this, and i imagine it might spur some people to donate. all in all, i reckon benny has done amnesty a favour.

 

[magicbastarder]

also:

The Vatican also said it was suspending all financial aid to Amnesty over what it said was the group's recent change of policy on the issue.

We have not accepted funds from the Vatican and do not accept funds from any other state in support of our work against human rights violations.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17378

 

[jane]

also:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17378

As the lord our saviour would say, "JAYSUS."

Anyway, you're probably right. It's just a bit of a bummer to see how it's being reported. And yer man's article in the Sindo really pisses me off, as if that'd come as a surprise to anyone...But like the Amnesty situation, maybe articles like his do a bit to make people realise that there's, uh, 'A lot more to do."