US Presidential Elections 2008 (12 Viewers)

[Mormon Nailer]

And what about those people who don't make enough money for those lower taxes to mean much to them? For the people that maybe don't even make enough to pay taxes? With such a low tax-take, where will the money be for programmes to support the poor to get out of poverty? Obama's plan is to reorganise taxation so that the highest earners pay more tax. That's how you trickle shit down.

How about health care? Who is going to pay for health care? The under-resourced public school systems? The Federal School Lunch/Breakfast programmes, which for some of the poorest kids, is their only proper meal of the day? For Head Start programmes, to help make up some of the huge gaps in early childhood education? For caring for the elderly?

You can't budget long-term for vital programmes based on the fickleness of the private consumer.

That tax cut plan has actually never worked in reality. It's helped boost the people who already had a boost, but it's never helped the people at the bottom of the ladder. If anything, it's made a lot of people even more vulnerable than they otherwise would be.

It was Reagan's plan, and it was the final nail in the coffin of the working class in America, who, while never prosperous, were able to look after themselves and their families until he came along with his pathetic little trickle. It didn't work. At the end of his presidency, we had a major recession, which was continued through Bush's term, and only was relieved under Clinton. Clinton, who balanced the budget, which Bush pretty much immediately unbalanced. The country has generally done better financially under Democrats, who are not the tax-vacuums they are accused of being, but certainly Republicans like to forget that.

As for Iraq, what does 'stay the course' mean, in your own words? Obama's plan is not for immediate withdrawal, although I saw a very interesting plan about two years ago, from Alexander Haig and a few other military experts, who suggested that, in fact, pulling out as soon as possible, so long as it's done wisely, is actually the only way to help Iraq get back on its feet. You can leave a country militarily, while still trying to support people in the country.

What course do you think should be stayed? Iraqis are not all idiots who would fall victim to the first door-to-door Al Qaeda shyster as soon as the Yanks turn their backs. No one is saying that everyone should come home on the same plane, the day after inauguration.

The republicans of the old school are turning in their fucking graves right now over McCain. I did also hear that my normally very conservative aunt and uncle in Alabama are not only voting for Obama, they're working on his campaign. For serious. Dyed-in-the-wool republicans took the punk stew and are slouching towards optimism.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/05/the-predator-st.html

Have you read this?

It makes much of the same points you are making here. Gilbraith was on the radio the other evening, very interesting.

The general theses can be simply stated. First, while conservatives toyed with laissez-faire, they quickly abandoned it in all important areas of policy-making. For them, it now serves as nothing more than an enabling myth, used to hide the true nature of our world. Ironically, only the progressive still takes the call for “market solutions” seriously, and this is the major barrier to formulating sensible policy. Second, the “industrial state” has been replaced by a predator state, a coalition of relentless opponents of the very idea of a “public interest”, whose purpose is to master the state structure in order to empower a high plutocracy with nothing more than vile and rapacious goals. Finally, the “corporate republic” created by the likes of Dick Cheney is highly unstable, a formula for national failure. Progressives must wrest control from the reactionaries before it is too late for restoration of America as the world’s financial anchor, technological leader, and promoter of collective security.

 

[egg_]

and yes jane your right,my economic arguments bear no relation to reality, conveniently ignoring the fact that as good as the whole world has signed up to such economic policies,how more realistic do you want?

Is that because the powers-that-be genuinely believe that "signing up to" neo-conservative economic policies will actually make life better for all citizens of the world, or because they believe that the policies will benefit themselves?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

i still stand by tax cuts,if im earning €100,000 and paying 5% tax that equals €5000 in tax, a person earning €20000 and paying a higher tax rate say 10% pays €2000 in tax even though im on a lower tax band im still paying more in taxes.

Except now that the federal tax is 5% the country can't fund it's illegal war and bankrupts itself but more importantly the state can't fund itself either so state sales taxes are raised to fund basic services.

I wonder who this will impact more the guy with 95K after tax income or the poor family with 18K?

But I guess in your trickle down world if a loaf of bread and a pint of milk are too expensive there will be enough change left by a rich people in the spare change jar in the shop to cover the difference.

 

[Froog]

good thread this.

 

[reformer]

So you more or less share the same economic views that Barack Obama has?:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/m...-t.html?_r=3&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

well thats unexpected,put me in this category though-"liberals who had come to think that Friedman was right about a lot, just not everything."

Except now that the federal tax is 5% the country can't fund it's illegal war and bankrupts itself but more importantly the state can't fund itself either so state sales taxes are raised to fund basic services.

I wonder who this will impact more the guy with 95K after tax income or the poor family with 18K?

its transparently obvious who it will impact more,im arguing in favour of income tax cuts not sales tax,different kettle of fish.
and as a side note id be of the persuasion that in an ideal world no-one would pay taxes but thats not gonna happen anytime soon so ill stick with my ideas on tax cuts.

 

[pete]

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

 

[flashback]

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.

Huh. Never thought about that. Interesting point assuming its statistically true, not just anecdotally.

I'd partly buy it, but there is also a lot of research that says straight calorific restriction increases your life span slightly. But that's calorific restriction with good nutrition otherwise. Not the case for McCain as a POW I suppose.

 

[broken arm]

and as a side note id be of the persuasion that in an ideal world no-one would pay taxes but thats not gonna happen anytime soon so ill stick with my ideas on tax cuts.

in a tax-free system what would be the commercial incentive for the delivery of public goods e.g. street lighting, drainage, libraries, ambulance services, commercial/domestic infrastructure, ye know all that sort of stuff....

 

[the strange guy]

Seriously lads.
For all of your eloquent reasoning and exquisite understanding of the US political system...
This lad is going to crush, oppress and destroy a lot more people around the world than Bush ever has or McCain ever will.

And most of you don't even know his name.

 

[pete]

Hu?

 

[Gambra]

That's Hu Jintao. Jesus Oly, we're not that bad! He did a good job of the Olympics didn't he? Managed to only spend about $45billion and destroy the houses of several thousand people (prob hundreds of thousands) in the process!


Edit:Edited out bad attempt at humour.

 

[the strange guy]

I won't have you speak of my glorious leader like that.
Nice one for recognising him though.
Usually people just refer to him as 'The Chinese'.
As in 'Did you see what the Chinese have done in Darfur' and 'I had a lovely Chinese last night'.

 

[Gambra]

Ah I'd say he's a right laugh with a few cans in him.

 

[the strange guy]

Cans of rice?

 

[Gambra]

Oh please, rice is a commoners food. All Glorious Leader would never eat be seen eating rice. It's foie gras or nothing for him.

 

[broken arm]

imagine the size of his balls.

 

[Gambra]

Nice one for recognising him though.
Usually people just refer to him as 'The Chinese'.
As in 'Did you see what the Chinese have done in Darfur' and 'I had a lovely Chinese last night'.

I'd kinda want to be recognising him, being a student of Politics. If I couldn't recognise the ruler of China, I'd be in big trouble.

 

[the strange guy]

imagine the size of his balls.

His metaphorical balls surpass the ballage of most third world countries.

I'd kinda want to be recognising him, being a student of Politics.

So what would you give The Hu out of 10 for
1) Ballage (metaphorical)
2) Maintaining a harmonious society
3) Relative anonymity to outraged Western youths compared to Bush

 

[broken arm]

seriously though, is he really that unknown by people?

 

[the strange guy]

Nearly all of my mates refer to him as 'The Chinese President'.
Not a word of a lie!