Trigger Warning (4 Viewers)

[nooleen]

FBI figures have them on a steady downward slope from 1991 through 2010. Of course it may be that figures have since increased but we'd need to wait at least five more years to see if there is an overall upward trend that justifies the tag 'rape culture'.

the concept refers to prevalence and attitudes rather than trends

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

the concept refers to prevalence and attitudes rather than trends

But surely such prevalence and attitudes would be reflected in the statistics?

 

[nooleen]

no doubt

 

[Squiggle]

Isn't this sort of stuff (the idea of rape culture) to do with the increased reportage of such issues? 20 years ago we likely would not have heard of many of these cases whereas in todays world we can find plenty of information to support/reinforce a given view.

The way that rapes are reported in the media, and rapists "punished", does nothing to discourage rapists. The message is never Rape is wrong, so just stop doing it people. It's always "she was wearing" "she'd been drinking" "she was alone" - all, or at least partly, her fault you see. A brutal assault on a young woman by a middle aged, middle class dickhead was the result of an "uncontrollable urge" with the implication that her running gear caused the urge.

The young woman recently murdered in Scotland is already getting the treatment. Victim shaming and victim blaming sells more papers, and sure he was always a lovely guy...

If anything, the way that such thing are reported promotes rape and violence against women by shifting the blame to the victim and making it very clear that there are hardly any consequences for the perpetrator.

Oh there's no denying that, it's just if there is a 'rape culture' it's in decline rather than increasing.

Is there? Or is it just that reporting to authorities has decreased. The other effect of the way that the subject is dealt with is that women are being given the message that if anything happens to them it is their fault. And if they try to report to the authorities the questions they're asked confirm that. "What were you wearing?", "Had you been drinking?" and so on. Basically "What did you do that caused this person to rape you?"

 

[Lili Marlene]

I don't disagree with you in general @Squiggle but I haven't seen any victim blaming in the scottish case in the media (i haven't been reading the more lurid tabloids mind you, why would I?). As far as I can tell they've just been reporting the details of what happened, initially in a hopeful attempt to maybe spur someone's memory.

 

[Squiggle]

I don't disagree with you in general @Squiggle but I haven't seen any victim blaming in the scottish case in the media (i haven't been reading the more lurid tabloids mind you, why would I?). As far as I can tell they've just been reporting the details of what happened, initially in a hopeful attempt to maybe spur someone's memory.

I guess it's the way that they are reporting them. I've been trying to find a project I saw before where articles about similar subject matter were compared, with the victim or perpetrator being re-sexed, for want of a better word. So an article about a female had her/she changed to his/he throughout and vice versa. Same newspaper (admittedly on of the lurid tabloids but they do have the widest readership so the biggest impact on social attitudes). They made bizarre reading and it was only then that I realised how used we have become to the gender bias in reporting.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Yeah I'd well believe it. I haven't seen anything that bad in this case so far is all. Still plenty of time though.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

The young woman recently murdered in Scotland is already getting the treatment. Victim shaming and victim blaming sells more papers, and sure he was always a lovely guy...

With respect, that hasn't happened at all.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

The way that rapes are reported in the media, and rapists "punished", does nothing to discourage rapists. The message is never Rape is wrong, so just stop doing it people. It's always "she was wearing" "she'd been drinking" "she was alone" - all, or at least partly, her fault you see. A brutal assault on a young woman by a middle aged, middle class dickhead was the result of an "uncontrollable urge" with the implication that her running gear caused the urge.

The young woman recently murdered in Scotland is already getting the treatment. Victim shaming and victim blaming sells more papers, and sure he was always a lovely guy...

If anything, the way that such thing are reported promotes rape and violence against women by shifting the blame to the victim and making it very clear that there are hardly any consequences for the perpetrator.



Is there? Or is it just that reporting to authorities has decreased. The other effect of the way that the subject is dealt with is that women are being given the message that if anything happens to them it is their fault. And if they try to report to the authorities the questions they're asked confirm that. "What were you wearing?", "Had you been drinking?" and so on. Basically "What did you do that caused this person to rape you?"

There may be some stupid and misinformed reportage but the idea that "the message is that rape is never wrong" is the exact sort of sensationalism that the tabloid media you criticise engage in.
Regarding the idea that "Her running gear caused the urge", I would suggest that emphasising/blaming a 'rape culture' is not too dissimilar- it allows the guilty absolve themselves of blame by saying the problem is with society, not the individual.
All of which misses my ultimate point- the age we live in allows us to find information that bolsters any theory we may have and, if we are looking for a narrative it will be found.. The idea of a 'rape culture' is not reflected in statistics.

 

[nooleen]

All of which misses my ultimate point- the age we live in allows us to find information that bolsters any theory we may have and, if we are looking for a narrative it will be found.. The idea of a 'rape culture' is not reflected in statistics.

it certainly is reflected; it's reflected in statistics covering under-reporting and prosecution rates.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

This was just on the radio, audio will be up in a bit

Interview: Jon Krakauer, Author Of 'Missoula': Rape And The Justice System In A College Town' : NPR

 

[Squiggle]

There may be some stupid and misinformed reportage but the idea that "the message is that rape is never wrong" is the exact sort of sensationalism that the tabloid media you criticise engage in.
Regarding the idea that "Her running gear caused the urge", I would suggest that emphasising/blaming a 'rape culture' is not too dissimilar- it allows the guilty absolve themselves of blame by saying the problem is with society, not the individual.
All of which misses my ultimate point- the age we live in allows us to find information that bolsters any theory we may have and, if we are looking for a narrative it will be found.. The idea of a 'rape culture' is not reflected in statistics.

#

You quoted me, but clearly didn't read it properly. I didn't say what you quoted (in bold above) I said The message is never Rape is wrong, so just stop doing it people.

Do you think we have an anti-rape culture? Because we should have. Statistics are only as good as the underlying data. Rapes are horrendously under reported and under recorded.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

#

You quoted me, but clearly didn't read it properly. I didn't say what you quoted (in bold above) I said The message is never Rape is wrong, so just stop doing it people.

Do you think we have an anti-rape culture? Because we should have. Statistics are only as good as the underlying data. Rapes are horrendously under reported and under recorded.

My apologies for misquoting you.
The point still stands however, to claim that

"The way that rapes are reported in the media, and rapists "punished", does nothing to discourage rapists. The message is never Rape is wrong, so just stop doing it people. It's always "she was wearing" "she'd been drinking" "she was alone" - all, or at least partly, her fault you see."

is very much sensationalist. You're saying that no media outlet has ever given any message but the above?

I'm well aware that rapes are under reported, under recorded and, returning to Noolys point, rarely prosecuted, it has always been so. Is there any evidence to suggest that the decline in number of rapes is tied to a decline in reports being made?
As for prosecutions rarely being made- we already know many are not reported so of course they can't be prosecuted, that aside, it is extremely difficult to ensure a conviction without evidence, in many rape cases it will ultimately come down to one persons word against anothers and, lacking the ability to prove an accusation beyond reasonable doubt, prosecutors will generally choose not to proceed. It may not be pleasant but that's how it is.

I'm not denying that there is a problem, just that it constitutes a 'culture'.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

As for prosecutions rarely being made- we already know many are not reported so of course they can't be prosecuted, that aside, it is extremely difficult to ensure a conviction without evidence, in many rape cases it will ultimately come down to one persons word against anothers and, lacking the ability to prove an accusation beyond reasonable doubt, prosecutors will generally choose not to proceed. It may not be pleasant but that's how it is.

This describes a system that tolerates rape with near-impunity.
Which reads to me like a culture where rape is facilitated.

 

[nooleen]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the decline in number of rapes is tied to a decline in reports being made?

are you still referring to the FBI data from 1991 to 2010? that shows a decline of about 2% while violent crime overall declined by about 40% in the same period. i'm not sure why you've tied your entire argument to that trend. from the way you've phrased things it sounds like you think 'rape culture' is supposed to be a recent development.

 

[Squiggle]

I'm well aware that rapes are under reported, under recorded and, returning to Noolys point, rarely prosecuted, it has always been so. Is there any evidence to suggest that the decline in number of rapes is tied to a decline in reports being made?
As for prosecutions rarely being made- we already know many are not reported so of course they can't be prosecuted, that aside, it is extremely difficult to ensure a conviction without evidence, in many rape cases it will ultimately come down to one persons word against anothers and, lacking the ability to prove an accusation beyond reasonable doubt, prosecutors will generally choose not to proceed. It may not be pleasant but that's how it is.

I'm not denying that there is a problem, just that it constitutes a 'culture'.

Is there any evidence to show that the "decline in the number of rapes" is not tied to a decline in reports being made, or accepted? That is the question you need to ask yourself. The number of rapes you refer to are those reported.

When I was in college I went with girls who were raped to the Gardai to support them when they wanted to report the attack, 3 different girls on three different occasions, and three different guards - same rapist. As soon as the guy's name was mentioned each girl was immediately dismissed, they didn't want to know. There's a rape supportive culture right there.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

This describes a system that tolerates rape with near-impunity.
Which reads to me like a culture where rape is facilitated.

Rape on the Campus by Zoë Heller | The New York Review of Books

Not sure if this has been linked to by someone else already - but it's a good read and overs this ground well. (I think)

 

[Lili Marlene]

I like this piece by Una Mullally (fucking hell I know, i'm sorry) I'm sure the comments will be a laugh riot as well

Una Mullally: Karen Buckley tragedy is every woman’s worst nightmare

 

[nooleen]

ah una's alright

she writes a lot better on social issues than social events

 

[Lili Marlene]

ah una's alright

she writes a lot better on social issues than social events

Yeah I know. She's usually not one for playing to her strengths though.