Trigger Warning (2 Viewers)

[Cornu Ammonis]

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[Cormcolash]

"silly fiddly music plays" hahahaha

 

[Unicron]

Struggling to understand this one.

Maryam Namazie, an apostate secularist Iranian (and chair of the worker-communist party of Iran) was due to give a talk at Goldsmith's in London on ‘Apostasy, blasphemy and free expression in the age of ISIS.' The university Islamic society tried to shut her down and disrupt the lecture.

The university feminist society have backed the protest, as have the university LGBTQ soc.

Unless there's stuff I don't know about her these are very strange bedfellows.

University Islamic Society accused of ‘thuggery’ against campaigner | Eastlondonlines

 

[pete]

I presume they're all about protecting the safe space?

 

[Unicron]

I presume they're all about protecting the safe space?

For all I know she might be a total arsehole and a lady-Iranian Dawkins, but I wouldn't want him shut down either in spite of how big a prick he is.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the recent Greer-Cardiff thing I can understand the attitudes towards her, this one is harder to parse on the face of it.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

At least she got to speak, Trinity tried to attach conditions to her speaking last year which led to her cancelling the event
Activist claims Trinity speech on apostasy and Islam cancelled

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

Apparently someone at an LGBT event in TCD took issue last night with the idea that XX and XY chromosomes is a binary system that doesn't reflect sex. Sorry buddy, 4 billion years of natural selection goes against you.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

I come across a bit Dawkins-ish there, sorry.

 

[Unicron]

Apparently someone at an LGBT event in TCD took issue last night with the idea that XX and XY chromosomes is a binary system that doesn't reflect sex. Sorry buddy, 4 billion years of natural selection goes against you.

Is this an extension of the "don't conflate sex and gender" idea which can can be seen as a trans-exclusionary stance if you do that?

On a separate point.

Gonna look like a tit here by using imprecise science words to you now but hopefully my gist will be clear ...

I read a book called the sport gene about a year ago and there was a chapter on why we have gendered sports (main point was that it's because men tend to have certain bio-mechanical and physiological advantages on average) and a case was cited where in the 80's a female Spanish athlete was gender tested, declared to be male and banned due to the presence of an XY chromosome pair. However she was born appearing to be female and had lived and been seen to be female her whole life. What appears to have happened in her case was that despite being XY the gene which typically responds to the bombardment of testosterone in utero and triggers the conversion from female, which we all start off as, to male in the womb wasn't functioning correctly so she continued to develop as female.

The book also postulated that perhaps her athletic excellence was in part down to her enjoying some of the biomechanical advantages that occur more in men due to the XY thing, for example as she was a middle distance runner having narrow hips makes for a more efficient running style but a sample size of one is hardly something to make such a big assertion IMO.

Anyway it's surely a rare case but what is the correct way to describe this person? Female as I presume that is how she identifies, and generally I'd lean towards recogising someone's gender identify personally? Or male due to the XY thing?

As an aside, I'd assume that if a man developed as such but was tested and found to be XX that's notionally possible but would be down to chimeraism?

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

Is this an extension of the "don't conflate sex and gender" idea which can can be seen as a trans-exclusionary stance if you do that?

On a separate point.

Gonna look like a tit here by using imprecise science words to you now but hopefully my gist will be clear ...

I read a book called the sport gene about a year ago and there was a chapter on why we have gendered sports (main point was that it's because men tend to have certain bio-mechanical and physiological advantages on average) and a case was cited where in the 80's a female Spanish athlete was gender tested, declared to be male and banned due to the presence of an XY chromosome pair. However she was born appearing to be female and had lived and been seen to be female her whole life. What appears to have happened in her case was that despite being XY the gene which typically responds to the bombardment of testosterone in utero and triggers the conversion from female, which we all start off as, to male in the womb wasn't functioning correctly so she continued to develop as female.

The book also postulated that perhaps her athletic excellence was in part down to her enjoying some of the biomechanical advantages that occur more in men due to the XY thing, for example as she was a middle distance runner having narrow hips makes for a more efficient running style but a sample size of one is hardly something to make such a big assertion IMO.

Anyway it's surely a rare case but what is the correct way to describe this person? Female as I presume that is how she identifies, and generally I'd lean towards recogising someone's gender identify personally? Or male due to the XY thing?

As an aside, I'd assume that if a man developed as such but was tested and found to be XX that's notionally possible but would be down to chimeraism?

I don't know, I'm not a geneticist or a gender studies guy. My guess is that the gender is female (because gender is a state that the person feels themselves to be in) and the sex is male (as genetically the cells in their body are male).

I think the thrust of the person's argument was that we shouldn't say XX and XY because that's exclusionary (I wasn't there, so can't really be sure what the story was) as it imposes a binary system on sex. However, in mammals, sex is determined by genetics and it is a binary state, even if you have extra copies of an X or a Y, once you have both an X and Y in there, you're male, and once you have only X chromosomes, you're female. For example triple X syndrome (where the woman has an extra copy of the X chromosome) doesn't make them "girlier" in a gender sense but is associated with developmental issues, learning impairments, etc. Any changes to how many X and Y chromosomes an individual (as opposed to being XX or XY) has results in developmental and biological problems in the same way as having an extra copy or missing a copy can be for any other chromosome. These changes all appear to be completely unrelated to gender or sexuality and getting annoyed that sex is a binary system in humans is like getting annoyed that gravity keeps making things hit the floor.

 

[hugh]

I may be missing some of the subtleties of the above but surely the point is that sex is biologically rather than culturally determined but gender is a mixture of both.

Anyway, stumbled across this the other day which seems relevant...

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus? New brain study says not

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

I may be missing some of the subtleties of the above but surely the point is that sex is biologically rather than culturally determined but gender is a mixture of both.

Precisely but the argument was that we can't use a biological argument because it's exclusionary, which is of course impossible.

Anyway, stumbled across this the other day which seems relevant...

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus? New brain study says not

I'm in two minds (ho-ho!) about this study. I still need to read the original paper but I've seen so many different conflicting media interpretations on it. Some are arguing that there's essentially no difference, which doesn't fit with the data at all. It shows that there is a largely male or female character to regions/functions but taken alone, you cannot say for certain whether the brain belongs to a man or a woman. However, if you take all the measurements together, you can probably say with some certainty whether the brain is male or female. More thoughts when I get to actually reading it.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Struggling to understand this one.

Maryam Namazie, an apostate secularist Iranian (and chair of the worker-communist party of Iran) was due to give a talk at Goldsmith's in London on ‘Apostasy, blasphemy and free expression in the age of ISIS.' The university Islamic society tried to shut her down and disrupt the lecture.

The university feminist society have backed the protest, as have the university LGBTQ soc.

Unless there's stuff I don't know about her these are very strange bedfellows.

University Islamic Society accused of ‘thuggery’ against campaigner | Eastlondonlines

This seems to be the response of the more supposedly right-on people I know

The Shame and the Disgrace of the Pro-Islamist Left

which, to be honest, I find as equally depressing a reaction as those feckin eejits interrupting the speech.

 

[Unicron]

This seems to be the response of the more supposedly right-on people I know

The Shame and the Disgrace of the Pro-Islamist Left

which, to be honest, I find as equally depressing a reaction as those feckin eejits interrupting the speech.

Sorry, just to clarify, the thing you find depressing is the article you linked to above or the people that the article is criticising?

 

[Lili Marlene]

Sorry, just to clarify, the thing you find depressing is the article you linked to above or the people that the article is criticising?

The article itself. What's with this reference to an "ISOC’s utopian caliphate" for example? I'm gonna need a source on that one.

I see this kind of article all too often now; where a bunch of 20 year olds still working these things out get a huge amount of press coverage in a reworded PC-gone-too-far kind of way.

 

[therealjohnny]

Students Heckled Ex-Muslim During Talk; Now, They Want the Video Removed from YouTube

 

[Cormcolash]

Struggling to understand this one.

Maryam Namazie, an apostate secularist Iranian (and chair of the worker-communist party of Iran) was due to give a talk at Goldsmith's in London on ‘Apostasy, blasphemy and free expression in the age of ISIS.' The university Islamic society tried to shut her down and disrupt the lecture.

The university feminist society have backed the protest, as have the university LGBTQ soc.

Unless there's stuff I don't know about her these are very strange bedfellows.

University Islamic Society accused of ‘thuggery’ against campaigner | Eastlondonlines

Imagine if someone was to come to one of these universities and make a speech about how Christianity should be totally separated from civil rights and state institutions. That'd be good craic. There'd definitely be morons protesting that kind of speech too, but just look at Ireland, we are living proof of it being a good idea.
Basically, fuck organised religion.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

Rename Building Called 'Lynch': Students | Daily Read List

Students want to rename a building because it says Lynch on it.

He was a former school president that everyone agrees didn't hang anyone.

 

[therealjohnny]

for fucks sake

 

[Lili Marlene]

In a world where people will do anything to find offence, some people will do anything to find and give out about these people.

CIRCLE OF LIFE.