this auld wan that's up the duff (2 Viewers)

[krystal]

I can just spell proper me.

Ok, so yes, the law is what decisions regarding access are based on but it's interesting is it not that so many men feel aggrieved by the system when in fact it's mostly men who created it and men who still hand down these decisions?

you're quick-draw McGraw with the google there McDermott

I'm saying it doesn't follow because it's the law that counts, not whether the judges are male or female. If it were a female judge, it would be equally objectionable. The law, supposedly, is blind.

 

[krystal]

Not true. I just think a man should have a say in whether his child is aborted.

Right. We've established that but there is still this big hazy patch of 'huh?' hanging round between what happens when she says yes and he says no to an abortion.

According to you in this case she then *simply* has to have it and he raises it. That's not acceptable to the woman who just doesn't want to have this child. Can you not see how deeply unfair and downright wrong that is?

 

[jane]

Seeing as you think that a man should have a say within a relationship, define a relationship.

No. Because the fact that it's nearly impossible to define in what kind of relationship this could take place is exactly the reason having this whole issue in a courts system would FAIL. All relationships are different. Hence, it absolutely must be up to the two people involved to make the decision themselves, to define the relationship they have with each other, and to define how decisions are made within it.

I am not going to try to put a legally-viable definition on 'relationship' for the same reason I think these are personal decisions: the legal system is no place for it.

 

[F. Fred Palakon]

what about third trimester?

In my world, they would be allowed under certain circumstances which would be decided through a more intense and researched discussion involving the medical profession than a Friday thread on Thumped

I think these usually depend on the viability of the foetus and what I really don't want this thread to turn into is an argument about at what point a foetus becomes a human, when really it's about the range of opinions over how much say a a man has over what goes on in a woman's womb.

 

[egg_]

just because protecting potential addicts from themselves isn't necessarily about women's bodies, that doesn't mean that the abortion debate isn't about women's bodies

Can't you see that the cheese thing is simply a manifestation of a common societal behaviour that has nothing in particular to do with sex/gender? Surely you can

Underneath all the 'sanctity' of life is an underlying attitude, one which bolsters all of Western Christian philosophy, that women are all whores unless they are adequately civilised by men, and that we are liars until validated by a man (or a collective paternalistic unit like a courtroom), and that we will kill our own children if given half a chance

This is what I meant by your "tone" being off. You're saying being anti-abortion and hating woman are equivalent, and that is simply not true

 

[snakybus]

And Snaky, there is a big difference between the state refusing fathers' visitation. I agree there are problems there, and that yes, there are many dedicated fathers out there whose participation in parenting has been limited by the courts, also based on gender assumptions, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this particular issue of abortion. To make it so would turn it into a tit-for-tat situation which would make it legally possible to force someone to bear a child as retribution.

Oh I know it's not the same, but neither is it completely unconnected. It shows that the law imposes itself on our personal, emotional lives, sometimes in favour of one gender over the other. Whether this is better or worse than the imposition of the law - or the opinion of the father - on the womb is a moot point.

 

[snakybus]

I can just spell proper me.

Ok, so yes, the law is what decisions regarding access are based on but it's interesting is it not that so many men feel aggrieved by the system when in fact it's mostly men who created it and men who still hand down these decisions?

well, maybe these male judges are unenlightened mummies boys, I dunno. I don't think men created the system, by the way - I think society creates systems. The judges do hand them out, though.

 

[jane]

Can't you see that the cheese thing is simply a manifestation of a common societal behaviour that has nothing in particular to do with sex/gender? Surely you can


This is what I meant by your "tone" being off. You're saying being anti-abortion and hating woman are equivalent, and that is simply not true

I didn't say it was about 'hating' women. Just that it is underlined by an attitude that women are viewed with suspicion, and need to be protected from themselves. Sometimes it's not about women's wombs, but often, it is. And when it's about women's wombs, it's about protecting women from their own inherent unruliness. It's a reality that this attitude exists. I didn't make it up, and it's not a problem with my 'tone'. My 'tone' is not off. I am pointing out a problem, but just because I'm pointing it out, doesn't mean I am responsible for its existence. If you want, I can go all day and show you very specific examples, beginning with early recorded history, and continuing up to the present day. But do I have to do all that work just for my statement to be validated? I hope not.

And these common societal behaviours are very much about gender. Not all of them are centred on women/femininity at all. But they are, indeed gendered. All of them.

 

[krystal]

Oh I definitely think men created our legal system. Don't forget that until very recently, we did reside in a firm patriarchy and some would say we still do.

well, maybe these male judges are unenlightened mummies boys, I dunno. I don't think men created the system, by the way - I think society creates systems. The judges do hand them out, though.

 

[egg_]

it's interesting is it not that so many men feel aggrieved by the system when in fact it's mostly men who created it and men who still hand down these decisions?

Terrible isn't it? You'd think if men had any sense they'd favour themselves when writing legislation

 

[snakybus]

check out egg still going on about the cheese

 

[jane]

well, maybe these male judges are unenlightened mummies boys, I dunno. I don't think men created the system, by the way - I think society creates systems. The judges do hand them out, though.

Society is made up of people. It is an abstract concept negotiated by people, constructed by people, and constantly redefined by living, breathing human beings. The people who have had the most political power in society -- and it is political power that makes laws -- have always been men.

 

[La La]

I didn't say it was about 'hating' women. Just that it is underlined by an attitude that women are viewed with suspicion. It's a reality that this attitude exists. I didn't make it up, and it's not a problem with my 'tone'. My 'tone' is not off. I am pointing out a problem, but just because I'm pointing it out, doesn't mean I am responsible for its existence.

And these common societal behaviours are very much about gender. Not all of them are centred on women/femininity at all. But they are, indeed gendered. All of them.

as of this post jane, you've typed 5,565 words.
five thousand, five hundred and sixty five.

my god woman, where were you when i was typing my thesis?

(i gathered this information by copying and pasting all of jane's posts into word. i feel both elated and knackered.)


-incidentally, reading the whole document back is kinda like watching fight club, cos you only see your replies and no one els's remarks. pm me if you want me to send it to ya!

 

[snakybus]

Oh I definitely think men created our legal system. Don't forget that until very recently, we did reside in a firm patriarchy and some would say we still do.

I disagree, I think Ireland has always been a nation of mummy's boys, and still is.

You don't have any brothers, do you?

 

[jane]

as of this post jane, you've typed 5,565 words.
five thousand, five hundred and sixty five.

my god woman, where were you when i was typing my thesis?

(i gathered this information by copying and pasting all of jane's posts into word. i feel both elated and knackered.)

Shit.

Wait, do I win something?

 

[jane]

I disagree, I think Ireland has always been a nation of mummy's boys, and still is.

You don't have any brothers, do you?

How is a nation of 'mummy's boys' the antithesis of patriarchy?

Because if really, it was, then the laydeez would long ago have shoved those boys aside and would be occupying far more than 13% of the seats in Dail Eireann.

 

[krystal]

Nope, but so?
I have a DAD. Who coincidentally is very pro-choice and brought me up to be the ball bustin' cynic that I am.

I disagree, I think Ireland has always been a nation of mummy's boys, and still is.

You don't have any brothers, do you?

 

[krystal]

I think he means we're the power behind the throne.

In which case abortions all round with chasers of sterilisation! That'll show them pesky men!

How is a nation of 'mummy's boys' the antithesis of patriarchy?

Because if really, it was, then the laydeez would long ago have shoved those boys aside and would be occupying far more than 13% of the seats in Dail Eireann.

 

[MDR]

Right. We've established that but there is still this big hazy patch of 'huh?' hanging round between what happens when she says yes and he says no to an abortion.

According to you in this case she then *simply* has to have it and he raises it. That's not acceptable to the woman who just doesn't want to have this child. Can you not see how deeply unfair and downright wrong that is?

Both people have to accept that they have caused a pregnancy. If the man does not want his child aborted then i think it is deeply unfair and unjust for the woman to be able to go ahead and do it without his consent. Unwanted pregnancy is never easy, but both adults still have to accept responsibility for it.

Ok, I have work to do. Will check in again before i go home.

 

[jane]

Nope, but so?
I have a DAD. Who coincidentally is very pro-choice and brought me up to be the ball bustin' cynic that I am.

Yeah, ME TOO.

My dad even beat the Vatican, too!

He was tried for heresy because of his objections to the Humanae Vitae. HERESY, I tell you!

And he beat the charge, too.

But I'm equally a product of daddy and mommy. I have daddy's fire in the belly, but mommy's snark. It's dangerous. Someone ought to make a law that protects me from myself. Oh! Wait! Ha ha! No need!