this auld wan that's up the duff (1 Viewer)

[krystal]

yes and who makes those decisions in most cases in ireland? Male judges...

But the law decides that parents can't see their children all the time - it separates fathers from their children ALL the time. It would be nice if our relationships could sort everything out, but the law might be necessary sometimes.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

I know that. But they don't forcibly snip every man over the age of 45.

I know men have visited a lot of injustices on woman kind over the years but I didnt realise were responsible for the menopause!
The length of a females normal reproductive life has nothing got to do with male/societal attempts to control how a woman uses her womb, its an evolutionary adaptation to ensure the maximum chances of survival for both mother and child.

Plus in this case this woman is 63, so when the child is 17 she'll be at least 80. My grandmother, who was hale and harty at 63, is now 80 and in no position to handle teenagers!

There exceptions to every rule, and Id never agree to legislate for this sort of thing (among other resons because Id imagine it would be an extreemly rare occurance), but a debate on whether its a good idea or not for 63 year old to have a kid doesnt automatically boil down to society trying to control
women!

 

[snakybus]

So basically, you don't believe men and women should have equal choice in the matter. If the man has a legal veto, then he has MORE POWER, and thus, the woman has no choice, if the basis of that choice requires the man's consent.

THAT IS NOT EQUAL.

it's not equal the other way either - that's Ro's point

 

[snakybus]

yes and who makes those decisions in most cases in ireland? Male judges...

non sequiter, Kirstie, non-sequiter

 

[MDR]

So basically, you don't believe men and women should have equal choice in the matter. If the man has a legal veto, then he has MORE POWER, and thus, the woman has no choice, if the basis of that choice requires the man's consent.

THAT IS NOT EQUAL.

No need for the capital letters - i hear you.

I am arguing that men should have an equal say on abortion. You're arguing that the woman's point of view should prevail no matter what the man thinks.

 

[krystal]

let me summarise this as I see it from what's been said in this thread so far with regard to a mans right to veto a womans decision about terminating a pregnancy:

a man and a woman have casual sex
she gets pregnant
she tells him she's having an abortion
he disagrees and refuses consent

stalemate

what happens then? do they go to court to sort it out? will this court sit very soon? cos if it doesn't - push push wahh wahh will ensue. Does his decision to refuse her the right to abort hold sway even though it might damage her career or educational prospects?

What if she's 18 and at the start of college and he's 35 - does he have the right to refuse to allow that girl to realise her potential because he wants a kid? I call that selfish, not fair.

 

[MDR]

let me summarise this as I see it from what's been said in this thread so far with regard to a mans right to veto a womans decision about terminating a pregnancy:

a man and a woman have casual sex
she gets pregnant
she tells him she's having an abortion
he disagrees and refuses consent

stalemate

what happens then?

She has the baby and he takes full responsibility for it when it's born.

 

[F. Fred Palakon]

would you agree that in cases of pregnancy from consensual sex that the father's consent (let's assume the father is known) would be required for an abortion to take place?

Absolutely not! In my world, that would never happen because women would be allowed to have first trimester abortions whenever they wanted.

 

[glen]

I have to ask my missus if I can go for a poo even though we had consensual dinner. She usually says
yes but sometimes I have to hold on for ages if I've been answering back or taking that tone with her.

 

[krystal]

yes but, she doesn't WANT to.
That's why she wants an abortion. So she doesn't bring a baby she doesn't want into the picture. So in your scenario the man wins, in every way it seems. He gets the child and she gets to carry this child she doesn't want and have the resultant signs on her body for the rest of her life, not to mention the emotional scars.

She has the baby and he takes full responsibility for it when it's born.

 

[snakybus]

what about third trimester?

 

[krystal]

how does it not follow? Is it not a fact most judges in Ireland are male and therefore are legislating against their gender in access cases? and if you're going to split hairs Mike, it's non sequitur

non sequiter, Kirstie, non-sequiter

 

[snakybus]

yes but, she doesn't WANT to.
That's why she wants an abortion. So she doesn't bring a baby she doesn't want into the picture. So in your scenario the man wins, in every way it seems. He gets the child and she gets to carry this child she doesn't want and have the resultant signs on her body for the rest of her life, not to mention the emotional scars.

you make pregnancy sound like Guantanomo Bay

 

[krystal]

it's not equal the other way either - that's Ro's point

No, in Ro's fantasy world, it seems to be the man who gets all the say and the woman is held up to horrible scrutiny and censure if she wants to abort a pregnancy.

 

[jane]

No need for the capital letters - i hear you.

I am arguing that men should have an equal say on abortion. You're arguing that the woman's point of view should prevail no matter what the man thinks.

Actually, yes. I do believe the person with the womb should have more say over it in a legal sense. Within a relationship, that's up to the couple. In fact, the only way that there can be equality between men and women is if women are allowed to decide when they carry children.

See Kirstie's post above. Basically, what she said.

And Snaky, there is a big difference between the state refusing fathers' visitation. I agree there are problems there, and that yes, there are many dedicated fathers out there whose participation in parenting has been limited by the courts, also based on gender assumptions, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this particular issue of abortion. To make it so would turn it into a tit-for-tat situation which would make it legally possible to force someone to bear a child as retribution.

Also, JohnnyRaz, I was being sarcastic, and no one said that the patriarchy rendered women infertile.

 

[krystal]

well, if you didn't want it, then yes, you could feel very trapped with no one fighting your corner and childbirth being the only way out, yes.

you make pregnancy sound like Guantanomo Bay

 

[MDR]

Absolutely not! In my world, that would never happen because women would be allowed to have first trimester abortions whenever they wanted.

well then that's where we disagree

 

[snakybus]

how does it not follow? Is it not a fact most judges in Ireland are male and therefore are legislating against their gender in access cases? and if you're going to split hairs Mike, it's non sequitur

you're quick-draw McGraw with the google there McDermott

I'm saying it doesn't follow because it's the law that counts, not whether the judges are male or female. If it were a female judge, it would be equally objectionable. The law, supposedly, is blind.

 

[MDR]

No, in Ro's fantasy world, it seems to be the man who gets all the say and the woman is held up to horrible scrutiny and censure if she wants to abort a pregnancy.

Not true. I just think a man should have a say in whether his child is aborted.

 

[MDR]

Actually, yes. I do believe the person with the womb should have more say over it in a legal sense. Within a relationship, that's up to the couple.

Seeing as you think that a man should have a say within a relationship, define a relationship.